Why did Watkins leave Eddowes body?

[Nurse Sarah]

jdpegg - I like that...

[Jenni Shelden]

Monty,

is it that no one on the last one know's where their chin is?

[Nurse Sarah]

They don't wear any hats in the top one, but I shall be buggered if I can see any other differences between the top 3 and the last one, though I'm sure it's staring me in the face...

[Monty]

The following photos are.

1. City Police Photo Moor Lane 1897
2. City Police group photo 1902
3. City Police Group phtot 1902 Coronation Shot.
4. City Police Group photo Snow Hill 1887 (Courtesy Stewart Evans)


Anyone notice the difference between the top 3 and the last one?

[Dr. John Watson]

This was found at http://citypolice.tripod.com

There have been several different styles of whistles, which the City Police have used over the years. The City from 1886 up until the late 1980’s used a metal type of whistle. Some had a brass finish and some white metal finish. Today the City Officers are still equipped with whistles but they are made of plastic. Most of the City Police Whistles have the name of the Force stamped on them as well as the manufacturer name, J. Hudson and Co. Birmingham. Some examples also have a serial number on the top cap of the whistle. Other examples also have a number stamped which is assigned to the particular officer. Another example which was issued by J. Hudson was stamped City of London Police Reserve. The whistles were suspended from a brass chain from the second button of the Officer’s Tunic.

Click on the "Medals & Ranks" button for this excerpt and some interesting photos of the whistles.

[Dr. John Watson]

This was found at http://www.worthpoint.com

Sold Date: 12/12/2006
Channel: Online Auction
Source: eBay
This is a very rare J. Hudson "London City Police" made of Nickel Silver. It is from the Martyn Gilchrist collection and is featured in one of his 3 books on police whistles. Address as shown on whistle is 131 Barr St. which is the 1st address and the whistle is from c. 1887. What makes even more rare than the fact that it is a first patent is that the mouthpiece was personally made by James Hudson the brother. Illustrations of James's work is on p. 45 of Martyn's book. This is an extremely rare and incredibly clean high shine whistle. It is from the Martyn Gilchrist collection # 2451. Whistle blows incredibly well. Whistle marke (London City Police - whistle issue # is 962 - Patent - J. Hudson & Co - 131 Barr St. -Birmingham) Good luck bidding

[Dr. John Watson]

The City of London Beat BEAT constables were not issued with whistles as standard in 1888 . . . Watkins himself testifies to this. Unless you are stating he was lying about that also.

Regards
Monty

Sorry old man, but if you're basing your whole case on a newspaper report of Watkins' inquest testimony, you're relying solely on hearsay. I don't know (and neither do you) whether the newspaper quoted Watkins' inquest testimony in its entirety, correctly and verbatim, or whether the officer simply misstated the facts to explain why he didn't blow his whistle. In any case, it doesn't amount to real evidence. Now, you ignored my mention of an actual 1887 City of London police whistle being auctioned (which would be real evidence), so I found the auction site and I'm reprinting the information verbatim below. Then, a little further research revealed a very interesting site devoted to the City of London Police, and I'm posting the relevent facts from that site below. You can check them out youself on the web.

[Monty]

Not true, Monty. Police whistles were first issued to Metropolitan PCs in 1884 and to City constables in 1886. Matter of fact, a City Police whistle dated 1887 was recently offered on Ebay. So certainly PC Watkins had a whistle.

And BillyE, those early whistles had been tested and could be heard for a good mile. Granted, the buildings in the square might have limited that distance somewhat, but Watkins had only to take a few steps to Mitre St where he would certainly have been heard by the numerous PCs in the area.

Jeeze,

10 years of study out of the window....ooop, apparently not.

Part of P.C Watkins Inquest testimony:

By the Jury. - He did not sound a whistle, because they did not carry whistles. The watchman did whistle.

Cheers Rob, I didnt know that !


The City of London Beat BEAT constables were not issued with whistles as standard in 1888.

Watkins himself testifies to this. Unless you are stating he was lying about that also.


Mike,

Yes, the two were well aquainted. They stated that they often spoke to each other and I believe Morris refers to a PC in the Birke incident, who I feel is most likely Watkins.

Regards
Monty

[The Good Michael]

Rob and Monty and GM,

Good info as always. If I'm not mistaken, Morris, being an ex-copper and Watkins were well-acquainted and even shared tea at the warehouse on this evening. Or I'm getting my Tonges mixed up.

Mike

[Rob Clack]

Part of P.C Watkins Inquest testimony:

By the Jury. - He did not sound a whistle, because they did not carry whistles. The watchman did whistle. Witness's beat was a single beat; no other policeman entered Mitre-square.

Rob

[Dr. John Watson]

Jenny:

You're questions about Watkins are valid, so don't be put off by those who mistakenly present theories as facts. The fact is, if you rely only on the known evidence, it's not only possible, but likely that Watkins encountered the Ripper in Mitre Square. If you track the positions of the two PCs who patroled the square - Watkins and Harvey - and note the times they checked the square, then compare that with the time Eddowes and the Ripper were seen by Lawende and his two friends, and the time Watkins said he discovered Eddowes, you almost have to conclude Watkins and the Ripper were there - in the square - at the same time. In addition, two police officials later wrote of a "City PC" in Mitre Court who actually saw the Ripper. The constable was not identified by name, and most of the records from that time were destroyed in the war. Taking the reports of these two officials at face value, you'd have to conclude they were speaking of Watkins. Those who defend Watkins will argue the writers were referring to the Metropolitan PC who saw a suspicious man with Stride in Berner Street and simply confused him with a City PC. That's possible, I guess, but there is not a bit of evidence to support it.

[Dr. John Watson]

I forgot to mention, City Police Constables, which Watkins was one, were not issued with whistles till the following year.

Watkins couldnt blow his whistle....he didnt have one.

Cheers
Monty

Not true, Monty. Police whistles were first issued to Metropolitan PCs in 1884 and to City constables in 1886. Matter of fact, a City Police whistle dated 1887 was recently offered on Ebay. So certainly PC Watkins had a whistle.

And BillyE, those early whistles had been tested and could be heard for a good mile. Granted, the buildings in the square might have limited that distance somewhat, but Watkins had only to take a few steps to Mitre St where he would certainly have been heard by the numerous PCs in the area.

[Scott Nelson]

... I believe Watkins rounded the corner of the square and came face to face with Jack the Ripper in the act of cutting up Eddowes. Watkins would undoubtedly have been shocked and likely frightened out of his wits....Before reaching the safety of the open warehouse door, he likely looked over his shoulder and found Jack had fled.

Yes, yes it's all very clear now. Any police officer who had sex while on duty could undoubtedly lie about encountering the Ripper. And... without a whistle too.

[Monty]

Does anyone possess a brick wall?

I would like to bang my head against it.

Monty

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello Jenny and welcome to the boards. You have raised an excellent point here. I have puzzled for years over the actions of Watkins after discovering the body of Eddowes, as well as the timing of his last visit to the square and his subsequent discovery of the body. In my mind, taking all things into consideration, I believe Watkins rounded the corner of the square and came face to face with Jack the Ripper in the act of cutting up Eddowes. Watkins would undoubtedly have been shocked and likely frightened out of his wits. Armed only with a truncheon, his understandably human response would be to distance himself from danger as quickly as possible, which is what I believe he did. Before reaching the safety of the open warehouse door, he likely looked over his shoulder and found Jack had fled. His official version after that point is probably accurate. To answer your question: He didn't blow his whistle because he was too busy running for his life. If this is what really happened, Watkins would be the only person known to have actually seen Jack the Ripper.