What SHOULD the police have done?

[YankeeSergeant]

What should the plice done?

Great information everyone. In my humble and under informed opinion, there wasn't much they didn't try given the state of police forensics in 1888. Finger prints were not being used and it is doubtful the Bertrillion system would have been useful. Interviewing prostitutes would have helped but I don't know how much help interviewing Landlords of the public houses would have been as the landlords would be geared then as today to immediate trouble. Doubling the police presence might have helped but then as now you had budget concerns. Given the state of forensics in1888, I believe they did the best they could.

[protohistorian]

Thank You very much Hunter! Dave

[Hunter]

Hello Hunter, do we have the addresses of these 223 lodging houses? Dave

Hi Dave,

No, I do not have the addresses. My figures came from a letter sent by Commisioner Warren to the Home Office in regards to a query about the number of prostitutes, brothels and common lodging houses in the Whitechapel district on Oct 25, 1888. ( Mepo file 3/141, ff. 158-9)

Since the letter is compelling in its own right as to police procedure and attitudes I have posted the relevant parts -

'In reply to your letter of 22nd October there has been no return hitherto of the probable numbers of brothels in London, but during the last few months I have been tabulating the observations of Constables on their beats, and have come to the conclusion that there are 62 houses known to be brothels on the H or Whitechapel Divn and probably a great number of other houses which are more or less intermitently used for such purpose.

The number of CLH's ( Common lodging houses) is 233, accomodating 8,530 persons. We have no means of ascertaining what women are prostitutes and who are not, but there is an impression that there are about 1200 prostitutes, mostly of a very low condition.

...Mr. Charrington has been very active in evicting the holders of brothels... the result however is not conductive to morality. The unfortunate women are driven to plying for hire among respectable people, or else execise their calling in the streets.

The lower class of CLH's is naturally frequented by prostitutes, thieves and tramps as there is nowhere else for them to go, and no law to prevent their congregating there.

I fear that in driving the brothel keepers away from certain neighbourhoods much is being done to demoralize London generally. It is impossible to stop the supply when the demand exists...

I think that it is probable that a good number of people who are not married live together at the CLH's, but this also takes place in hotels in the West End.

I do not think there is any reason whatever for supposing that the murderer of Whitechapel has necessarily any connection with the condition of Whitechapel (or) is one of the ordinary denizens of that place..."

Imagine that. A policeman who has a common sense outlook on the situation as it existed... a soon to be beleaguered one at that. Of course, the press nor the public never had access to this document and based their opinions upon conjecture.

Ain't much changed.

[Sally]

Pubs

Now Sally, it is only useless in some contexts. That was quite helpful in this context, and so in my book not useless, Well done. Dave

Dave - I'm pleased to hear it has some relevance outside my own study - certainly makes a change

The tenancy tier will likely apply even when, as you can obviously see from your list, you have a business, and not an individual listed. Boozers are big business there and then, lots of companies, large and small, are vying for a slice of the cake. You get a lot of female publicans, they always call themselves 'Mrs' - though this is not unanimously the case in reality.

Now, please think carefully before encouraging me to bore further - I'm very proficient at it!

Kind regards

Sally

[protohistorian]

Now Sally, it is only useless in some contexts. That was quite helpful in this context, and so in my book not useless, Well done. Dave

[Sally]

Pubs

For interest, most of the names on the list of pubs in the district above will be those of tenants -'proprietors', rather than owners. Fairly likely is that most of them are in fact sub-tenants; that several of the pubs are ultimately owned by the same landowners. Getting at ownership is tricky. It probably only matters who the owner is if you suspect them of running a racket or some sort or another. Then again, that was hardly uncommon.

The useless things I know, eh?

[protohistorian]

Hello Hunter, do we have the addresses of these 223 lodging houses? Dave

[Hunter]

Perspective

An important reason the Ripper was not caught was the too short time frame in which the murders occurred. I assume that, had he continued killing over several years, he would have been caught.

Exactly, Maria.
And we seem to lose this perspective when analyzing the situation the police faced here. For us, time stands still. We have the luxury of hindsight to backtrack and pick apart every detail. They didn't. They were faced with a sudden onslaught of murders that occurred in rapid succesion and ended, for the most part, as quickly as they began; leaving little in the way of clues or motive. The likes of Albert Fish, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc... went on their rampages over a much more extended period of time before they were finally linked to the murders they had commited.

This thread has lasted 3 times longer than the Tabram through Kelly murders.

I believe that if one was to carefully look at the things missing from the police "routine investigation" methods, there are obvious examples here and there of a lack of thorough work.
Unless of course one harks back to " ahh, but there is so much stuff missing..." which is as a reason or excuse, becoming a bit of a worn out record, in my opinion.

It may be a bit of a worn out record, but it is true. The reports from the divisional level on down are largely no longer in existance. These reports and dockets provided the details, or minutiae of the investigation. It is the reports submitted to the Home Office that have survived in any extent and these are summaries of all of those other reports in a condensed form.

Even with this hadicap, the Swanson report of Oct. 19 gives us a glimpse of the extense of the investigation at the height of the murders. Swanson writes that eighty people had been detained and that the movements of more than 300 others had be investigated. "There are now 994 dockets besides police reports," he stated...And there is much more in this report that can be gleaned by the objective observer. The epicenter of these murders was cordoned off and searched... an undertaking that was unprecedented for the time.

The lodging houses...Swanson reported that more than 2000 inhabitants of these were questioned right after the 'double event'. Indeed, lodging houses were the first places the police checked out. Whether they watched the Victoria Home or not, we do not know. There were 233 such places in H division's jurisdiction housing some 8,500 people. But since suspicion fell on a number of people during that time, common sense would dictate that the comings and goings of 'certain' individuals would be noted; if not by the police, then by a very frightened public. The police were at Cooney's lodging house less than 2 hours after the Eddowes murder; questioning everyone there; the very place that Kate and John had stayed.

Yes, despite all of this, no one was apprehended. The Zodiac killer wasn't caught either... along with many other 'unsolved' series of murders that occured over a much longer timespan than the 'Autumn of Terror'; investigated by authorities with much better forensics and case histories... and much more time.

The killer would have had to have been caught literally in the act. We can see what happened with the one individual that was remanded for the Coles murder, Thomas Sadler. There is another case that occured in Newcastle 2 years previous that provides an even better example.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=146289#post146289

[protohistorian]

Thanks Mark! I forgot to mention if the road leaves the district, they still got plotted. Rather too much info than not enough. I also reserve the right to screw up, as it is the way of my people. Dave

[m_w_r]

These are for the District proper, or as the French say Le area bounded by the Macnaghten sequence.

Hi Dave,

I'm sure you'll find that the Bell (Middlesex Street) and the Blue Coat Boy (halfway along Dorset Street) lie outside the area you've defined, and I suspect it could do with one or two other refinements, but this is certainly a list to make a man feel a bit thirsty.

Incidentally, those left open as pubs (of the establishments on your list) are:

The Bell (Middlesex Street) [outside the defined area]
The Black Horse (Leman Street, as The Zeppelin Shelter) [outside the defined area]
The White Hart (Whitechapel High Street)
The Nag's Head (Whitechapel Road)
The Blue Anchor (Whitechapel Road, as Indo)
The Castle (Commercial Road)
The Ten Bells (Commercial Street)
The Princess Alice (Commercial Street)
The Horse and Groom (as, regrettably, the Bar Locks, Whitechurch Lane)
The Archers (Osborn Street)

Apologies in advance for any omissions.

Regards,

Mark

[protohistorian]

No worries Phil, glad to finally see a research question asked! Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave,

This is most interesting! Thank you!

best wishes

Phil

[protohistorian]

pubs as listed in the directory

The name given after the pub name is sometimes the proprieter and sometimes (mostly) unspecified. These are for the District proper, or as the French say Le area bounded by the Macnaghten sequence. Dave

[mariab]

To DVV:
Bonjour David,
not quite sure that Barnett was really cleared. Unfortunately, NO way whatsoever to research this further today, with the sources that are left. I'd like to see Abberline's survived covering report pertaining to Barnett one of these days.

[jason_c]

Hello Jason,

We do not often agree, but that comment at the end of your posting is insightful, imho. That really is food for thought.

best wishes

Phil

Im glad we agree on something Phil. I look forward to our next "firefight".