Robert Sagar

[The Good Michael]

Police whistles: Metro Police ordered in 1884

http://www.constabulary.com/faqs/w-faq.htm

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob,

Indeed it would! Where was the light itself one wonders? 1st floor (UK..Ground Floor) or 2nd floor (UK...1st Floor)?..or both? Could Morris SEE what he was sweeping on a dark staircase? So how much light would be on?

If the light was ABOVE the the ground, do we know if a door in one of the rooms was open?.. because THEN the light would also shine though the windows as well.. not bright, but it would certainly affect the light in Mitre Square, I propose?

best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

Hi again Phil,

My understanding was that Morris was on the second floor, sweeping the stairs down toward the door, no? Wouldnt this factor into your idea?

Rob H

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob,

Good to see you again!

I transferred the stuff, and more pertinent thoughts on Morris, here..

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=143024#post143024

Very plausble indeed Rob, re. Orange Market. The question that may help THAT particular point is this... which way did the door swing from where Morris was working..outward or inward? And were the hinges on the left or right of the door? Because IF he went out that way... would he then be more visible with the additional light?.. Again, sorry for interupting this thread..

best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

Hi Phil,

Nice to hear from you. You raise some good points, re: Morris. However, (speaking in terms of conjecture here) IF Watkins did see a suspect leaving the square, it may well have been via Mitre Court (aka St James Passage)... in other words, Watkins may have seen the man walk right past him as he was patrolling the Orange market. So it neednt have been at a distance or from behind. After all, if the Ripper decided to leave Mitre Square via St James passage, presumably he would have known there would be a policeman at the other end... but he might suspect that there would be people lingering around the end of Church passage, since he had seen Lawende and co there just a few minutes earlier.

I have been reading that old thread again... on City PC Thompson, which contained a lot of stuff about Mitre Court etc. (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2280)

I am also trying to collect all the references to a "City PC witness."

...

"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square" - Macnaghten 1894

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum. This man was said to resemble the murderer by the one person who got a glimpse of him - the police-constable in Mitre Court. " - Griffiths, 1898

"A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body." Sagar 1905.

"The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder." - Sims (1907) - source is probably Griffiths.

"One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim." - Sims

Also:

James Blenkingsop - standing watch over some street improvements in St. James Place, when a well dressed man approached and asked, “Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?” Blenkingsop replied that he had seen some people pass by, but added, “I didn’t take any notice.” The man then went away.

Rob

[Phil Carter]

Hello Rob,

"Explore possibilties" I like...

2 weeks ago I stood in Mitre Square, for the best part of an hour. Something that I hadn't done since I was a young lad. A couple of things struck me whilst I was there.....

Mitre Square is actually quite small..smaller than you would imagine (at least I imagined).. it is fairly compact really. Distances from one corner to the other corner ..relatively small.

There is an echo in that square. Because of the buildings around it, and how enclosed it is. Any sound, even in the middle of the afternoon with London traffic dull in the background, echos. I clapped my hands a few times at different points of the square..just to see, hear and judge things.

Morris, sweeping the floor... didn't hear a thing, yet he normally heard the beat pc every 15 mins. If Jack the Ripper had rubber soles on his feet... Kate Eddowes certainly didn't. Those footsteps in the dead of night would echo..clearly. And when you watch two "lovers" walking to a destination..are they always silent? If either "Jack" or Kate said a word, laughed, giggled, scraped a foot on the stones as they walked.. it would have been heard...
So we are to presume that a sobering woman and her "catch" are silent as they walked are we? As far as echo is concerned, I'd love to see if on Jakes models the buildings would have created that echo then...I suspect it did.

Finally... the Square was pretty dark in 1888 we are told. Lamp at one end, lamp at another...
BUT...Morris said his door was ajar... and Morris certainly didn't work in the dark. So the light coming from the open doorway would shine out into the darkness... and "Jack" would very likely have seen it as he walked into the yard. Now if Jack saw it.. he KNEW that someone was likely awake and in there....

That tells me either Morris was lying and was asleep, or Morris was lying and awake, or Morris heard Jack the Ripper and ignored him and his "woman" walking in trying to find a lonely dark corner..

Likewise, If the pc Watkins DID see Jack, as been suggested, he didn't think about it at the time, for he must only have seen a dark figure of a man in the distance disappearing out of the Square..his back walking away from him, not his face. And all this BEFORE he found the body. He would have been pretty shocked, I'd imagine!

Re. Sagar...it couldn't have been Watkins Sager meant, on the basis of the above. You can't get a good look at a man from the rear walking away from you in semi-darkness...can you?

Hope you are well Rob!

best wishes

Phil

Edit: I have transferred this posting over on to a new thread, with additions..

[robhouse]

Hi Monty,

I tend to "think out loud" so to speak. I am wondering:

a) Why are there so many references to a police witness?
b) Is it not possible that there was a City PC witness, and this was kept from the press?

I realize this is an old subject (and probably a canard), but I also think it is a good idea for us to keep an open mind, explore possibilities, and not always assume that we know everything. (Not that that is what I am implying you meant). It is likely that there are many aspects of the case that we know nothing about.

RH

[Dr. John Watson]

Rob,

Either the report Chris kindly provided is erronous or the story is false.

The City Police were not issued with whistles in 1888. Watkins was clear in this during his inquest apppearence.

Cheers
Monty

As I pointed out in another thread, some City of London PCs were provided with whistles as early as 1887 - thus your comment that they were not issued whistles in 1888 is erronous. One need only check the City of London Police web site to settle the issue.

John

[Monty]

Rob,

Either the report Chris kindly provided is erronous or the story is false.

The City Police were not issued with whistles in 1888. Watkins was clear in this during his inquest apppearence.

Cheers
Monty

[robhouse]

On second thought, it could have been Harvey too... either way, I dont see how the Police could have followed the sound of the suspect's retreating footsteps toward Stoney Lane.

If there is any truth to this, I think it could only mean that the suspect passed by the PC, then continued onward in the direction of Stoney Lane. Then after the body was discovered, the Police rushed up Stoney Lane to see if they could find the guy, but couldnt.

The suspect could have left Mitre Square via church passage or via St James's place... so either PC might have seen him. Although if the City PC indeed went on to discover the body, it would be Watkins (and an exit via St James's place probably).

Might also explain (to an extent) the Blenkinsop thing.

[robhouse]

The plot thickens... that would be PC Watkins.

I wonder if it would be useful to get together all the various accounts of a PC viewing a suspect and see if it is possible that there is any truth to this.

Of course there is no official file mentioning it (except that Macnaghten believed a City PC had seen a suspect.) Interesting that the man coming out of the alley had a Jewish appearance.

Even if this statement by Sagar was true, I dont think it would invalidate the idea that Kozminski was identified by a Jewish witness. Seems possible that the police might have attempted an identification by a City PC also, which failed... although Kozminski may have resembled the man seen coming out of Mitre Square.

Of course... this may just be wrong. But it does seem to add to the idea of a City PC seeing a suspect coming out of Mitre Sq.

[Chris]

Here is an interesting article on Robert Sagar from the Seattle Daily Times of 4 February 1905 (available through www.genealogybank.com), which gives some additional details of his theory of the Ripper's identity:

[Chris]

Information on a Sagar genealogical forum traces the name back to Lancashire in the 1500's.

Yes - as I said above, not only were there Sagars in Lancashire in the 1500s, but there were Sagars in Simonstone, the same township where Robert was born. The earliest reference I have seen is to a Robert Sagar who was active there in 1560-2:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53160

[ChrisGeorge]

Just to add - I'm in the process of tracing descendants, and I hope to contact them soon. Incidentally, I don't think there were any male descendants named Sagar who lived in the Brighton area other than his sons, Robert and Cecil.

Robert Sagar was born in Simonstone, Lancashire, where Sagars had lived since at least the 16th century. On that basis I think it's safe to conclude that Robert Sagar was neither German nor Jewish.

He also wasn't buried in a Jewish cemetery which is another good indication. Information on a Sagar genealogical forum traces the name back to Lancashire in the 1500's.

Chris

[Chris]

The bit from the Brighton & Hove Herald, 6 Dec 1924, "It was Mr. Sagar's view that the murders were committed by an insane man employed at Butcher's Row, Aldgate".... essentially agrees with Justin Atholl's story in Reynolds News 22 years later.

Yes, I think that's the most important point. The local reporter presumably got it either from the family or from another newspaper report of Sagar's death. My feeling is that Atholl was probably quoting something that Sagar had written for a newspaper at some point.