City PC Thompson?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Was the alleged witness who asked 'did you see a man and woman go through here?' a real person or was that fabricated?

[aspallek]

Thanks, Robert. It may all be only a remarkable coincidence then.

The other interesting thing though is that Sir Basil utilizes a mere PC's memoirs for a material fact such as the number of Ripper murders. I can understand his relying on Wensley for material relating to PC Thompson but to rely on Wensley for the number of victims seems a bit odd. Apparently, Sir Basil couldn't be bothered with doing a bit of research of his own.

Also my above question still holds: So how in the world can Sir Basil think this sighting has anything to do with the real Jack the Ripper and how can he identify it with the Mitre Court sighting which he clearly associates with a canonical murder?

[Robert]

Several newspapers reported Kate's murder as taking place in Mitre Court. At least one had it happening in both Mitre Court and Mitre Square on the same page!

[aspallek]

You know, this is getting a bit weirder. I think I have shown above that Sir Basil Thompson must have had Wensley's book before him as he wrote, yet Wensley clearly writes:

Officially, only five (with a possible sixth) murders were attributed to Jack the Ripper. There was, however, at least one other, strikingly similar in method, in which the murderer had a very narrow escape. This occurred something more than two years after the supposed last Ripper murder.

The story is chiefly concerned with a very young officer named Ernest Thompson who had been only six weeks in the service when, on February 13, 1891 - an ominous date - he went out for the first time alone on night duty. A part of his beat was through Chambers Street, from which at that time a turning, most inappropriately named Swallow Gardens, ran under a dark, dismal railway arch towards the Royal Mint. Thompson was patrolling Chambers Street when a man came running out of Swallow Gardens towards him. As soon as he perceived the officer he turned tail, made off at speed in the opposite direction, and was in a few seconds lost to view.

Thompson moved into Swallow Gardens and on turning the corner came across the body of a murdered woman - Frances Coles - mutilated in much the same fashion as the victims of the Ripper. The spot had possibly been chosen because it commanded a view in three directions.

So how in the world can Sir Basil think this sighting has anything to do with the real Jack the Ripper and how can he identify it with the Mitre Court sighting which he clearly associates with a canonical murder?

[aspallek]

...P.C. Harvey encountering a short Pole on Little Duke Street shortly before he enters Church Passage...

Hi Scott. Could you tell me where this is from? Also your previous mention of a sighting in Orange Market?

Thanks.

[Scott Nelson]

...P.C. Harvey encountering a short Pole on Little Duke Street shortly before he enters Church Passage...

[John Bennett]

Nice post, Robert.

Notice Church Passage, Mitre Square is also there, to be changed to St. James's Passage.

[Robert]

TIMES OCT 19th 1938

[aspallek]

Sir Basil's Sources

It appears that Sir Basil Thompson relied on Frederick Porter Wensley (Forty Years of Scotland Yard) in his recounting of the Ripper murders, as well as Major Arthur Griffiths.

Wensley: "Officially, only five (with a possible sixth) murders were attributed to Jack the Ripper.

Thompson: "Altogether five (with a possible sixth) were ascribed to Jack the Ripper...."

Wensley: "It is probable that had Thompson been a little more experienced he would have taken up the chase of the fugitive immediately."

Thompson: "An experienced officer would have pursued him...."

Wensley: "I fancy that the lost opportunity preyed on Thompson's mind, for I heard him refer to it in despondent terms more than once, and he seemed to regard the incident as presaging some evil fate for himself.

Thompson: "This error of judgment preyed on the constable's mind; he seemed to think that it presaged misfortune for himself."

Wensley: "The first time he went on night duty he discovered a murder; the last time he went on duty, some years later, he was murdered himself."

Thompson: "The first time he had gone on night duty he had discovered a murder; some years later he himself was murdered...."

[Monty]

Andy,

Yes, you are right, it is rather specific. I hadnt though of that aspect.

A very good point.

Monty

[aspallek]

Andy

My point is that Blenkinsopp must me considered in all this and the City PC may well have been a DC.

However, my gut feeling? Not worth the paper they are written on. An unfortunate mix of reports, stories and falsities.

Monty

Yes, agreed on both counts. The main thing that keeps my attention alive is the additional specific detail whereby Macnaghten's "near Mitre Square" has been specified as "in Mitre Court" in Griffiths and subsequent authors Sims and Thompson, as Mitre Court is indeed "near Mitre Square." It could still be a mere confusion of names but it is quite a remarkable coincidence that such a confusion yielded the actual (former) name of a location that fits the original "near Mitre Square."

This additional specific detail lends an air of credibility to the report.

[Monty]

Andy

If I understand Watkins' beat it would have taken him into what was once known as Mitre Court. The other possibility is the night watchman Morris, who was an ex-PC. There is no record of either of them sighting anyone, however.

Yes, Watkins beat would have taken him through Mitre Court on occasion. What must be remembered is on that night he was working an unusual left handed beat.


Blenkinsopp was working not far from Mitre Court. Though a Nightwatchman and not a PC he does tell of a curious conversation with a man who asks him if he saw a man pass by with a woman. This around 1.30am. It has been alleged that this man may have been a plain clothed DC (possibly Halse spreading out from the scene) and Blenkinsopp got his times mixed.

My point is that Blenkinsopp must me considered in all this and the City PC may well have been a DC.

However, my gut feeling? Not worth the paper they are written on. An unfortunate mix of reports, stories and falsities.

Monty

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The Morris thing always creeps me out; the fact that he was only a matter of yards away while Jack was doing his thing... scary thought.

Here's a thought: could the alleged 'did you see a man and woman go through here?' witness be the mysterious Thompson? Sorry if it's already been mentioned, I haven't read the entire thread.

[aspallek]

If I understand Watkins' beat it would have taken him into what was once known as Mitre Court. The other possibility is the night watchman Morris, who was an ex-PC. There is no record of either of them sighting anyone, however.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Sweet!

If this sighting did actually happen in a spot previously unknown, that then is interesting and just like you I'd like to know more, though sadly I think it's another mix-up of the Frances Coles' murder and Eddowes', but still, confusing Mitre Court and Swallow Gardens isn't exactly an easy mistake to make unless whoever made it seriously skimmed the info they had.