Anderson in NY Times, March 20, 1910

[Chris]

a]We dont know for sure what self abuse meant. It is assumed it meant masturbation .

It's not assumed "self-abuse" meant masturbation. It meant, and still means, masturbation. That's one of the definitions that can be found in the dictionary.

b]It was not then specified as the cause of insanity.

The exact wording taken from Feb 6 1891 Colney Hatch admissions book appears as :

Supposed Cause Unknown [added in red : "Self-Abuse ]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. The point I was making is that it was not Aaron's family who attributed his insanity to self-abuse, but others.

However, for the record, in the register of admissions [London Metropolitan Archives, H12/CH/B2/2] the physical cause of the disorder is simply stated as self-abuse. The date of Aaron's admission was 7 February, not 6 February.

What you are quoting is the case book [H12/CH/B13/39], which evidently initially copied Houchin's certificate, dated 6 February [StBG/ME/107/8, no 1558], which had stated that the cause was unknown, but was later given an additional comment "Self-abuse", perhaps on the basis of the admission register.

Regarding the incident with the knife, I can only repeat that it shows Houchin had been informed that Aaron had violent tendencies. Yes, Houchin concluded that Aaron was not dangerous to others, but the situation isn't quite as black-and-white as one would guess from your previous posts. We should keep this incident in mind, if for no other reason than that it might partly explain what Macnaghten wrote about Aaron Kozminski.

[Natalie Severn]

Of course, "self-abuse" simply means masturbation, not "some sort of obsession with masturbation".

There is no evidence at all that Aaron's family was particularly concerned about this, or that they considered it the cause of his illness. "Practises self-abuse" was simply stated in a list of "Other facts indicating Insanity" supplied by Jacob Cohen to Dr Houchin when he committed Aaron. It was then specified as the cause of insanity in the Colney Hatch admission register and case book.

Of course, among the other facts communicated by Jacob Cohen was "He took up a knife and threatened the life of his Sister". So it can scarcely be denied that Houchin had been informed that Aaron had violent tendencies. Unless someone is going to suggest that these records are also fakes, of course.

Chris,
a]We dont know for sure what self abuse meant. It is assumed it meant masturbation . Surely that had to have been a bit excessive or obsessive to have caused "insanity"?

b]It was not then specified as the cause of insanity.

The exact wording taken from Feb 6 1891 Colney Hatch admissions book appears as :

Supposed Cause Unknown [added in red : "Self-Abuse ]



With ref to the comment by Jacob Cohen that Kosminski took up a knife and threatened the life of his sister.Cases like this would have filled police station"s domestic violence incidents book -as they still do but these people were not then considered dangerous criminals . Kosminski was not considered by Houchin as a dangerous criminal as is evidenced in his words about his patient and in the same Male Patients Day Book [Feb 6 1891].


Note:

Dangerous to others NO

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

If we are to believe that the cause of Aaron's insanity was "self abuse", then I would respectfully suggest that this may have become something of an embarrassing obsession with him. But while, as Chris says, "There is no evidence at all that Aaron's family was particularly concerned about this, or that they considered it the cause of his illness", it is only fair to point out that, equally, there is no evidence to suggest they thought he was Jack the Ripper.

Also, why did it take Aaron's family almost three years to conclude he was Jack the Ripper? And I'm also wondering how they might have felt just days after committing him to Colney Hatch to learn that the Ripper investigation was ongoing and that the police were looking at Sadler [complete with the Mitre Square witness] as a possible suspect, and even later William Grant Grainger.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Norma,

No Jewish family who were fairly new immigrants and quite possibly untrusting of English government (after all, it is you who suggest rampant anti-semitism), would want to admit that a brother was possibly JTR, but they would still want to get rid of him after they found they couldn't control him, or after he told them what he'd done. Turn him in by all means. Commit him. But don't tell the absolute truth.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,
This is pure speculation without any hint whatsoever that this was the case.We cant just rewrite historical evidence unless we have other, superior evidence that replaces it,
best
Norma

[Chris]

His family were concerned particularly about his "self abuse" ie some sort of obsession with masturbation.This is given as the reason for referral and what the family thought to be the root cause of his "mania" [ravings].His placement in Colney Hatch was NOT for suspected violence.

Of course, "self-abuse" simply means masturbation, not "some sort of obsession with masturbation".

There is no evidence at all that Aaron's family was particularly concerned about this, or that they considered it the cause of his illness. "Practises self-abuse" was simply stated in a list of "Other facts indicating Insanity" supplied by Jacob Cohen to Dr Houchin when he committed Aaron. It was then specified as the cause of insanity in the Colney Hatch admission register and case book.

Of course, among the other facts communicated by Jacob Cohen was "He took up a knife and threatened the life of his Sister". So it can scarcely be denied that Houchin had been informed that Aaron had violent tendencies. Unless someone is going to suggest that these records are also fakes, of course.

[The Good Michael]

Norma,

I'm suggesting that his family wouldn't suggest he was violent or that they suspected him to be the Ripper, but would have him committed for lesser reasons. Two reasons would be to ensure he wasn't in police hands, thereby ending up hanged or sent to Broadmoor, and in order to protect themselves and the Jewish community from reprisal. No Jewish family who were fairly new immigrants and quite possibly untrusting of English government (after all, it is you who suggest rampant anti-semitism), would want to admit that a brother was possibly JTR, but they would still want to get rid of him after they found they couldn't control him, or after he told them what he'd done. Turn him in by all means. Commit him. But don't tell the absolute truth.

Cheers,

Mike

[Natalie Severn]

How can his being violent or suspected of violence by his family be discounted?

Mike

His family were concerned particularly about his "self abuse" ie some sort of obsession with masturbation.This is given as the reason for referral and what the family thought to be the root cause of his "mania" [ravings].His placement in Colney Hatch was NOT for suspected violence.Moreover it is clearly stated upon admission that he was NOT considered by the doctors at either Colney Hatch or Leavesdon as " a DANGER" to others .He was termed "a harmless lunatic".
Might you be confusing him with the other Jewish inmate of Colney Hatch who died soon after admission , same age,living in Whitechapel,namely David Cohen? He was admitted in December 1888 and was too violent to leave unrestrained.
Best
Norma

[The Good Michael]

Also, as it appears that Aaron Kosminski was committed to Colney Hatch by his family and not through the judicial process, any thought of him being dangerously violent is wildly off the mark.

How can his being violent or suspected of violence by his family be discounted?

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It required two magistrates or the Lord Lieutenant to commit a dangerous lunatic, so the issue of an asylum superintendent being unaware of a patient's violent tendencies does not arise. This can be found in the Lunacy Act 1st Vict., c. 27.

Also, as it appears that Aaron Kosminski was committed to Colney Hatch by his family and not through the judicial process, any thought of him being dangerously violent is wildly off the mark.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

... it would have been be a CRIMINAL OFFENCE had they the slightest suspicion he was a killer ,not to have declared their concern on medical notes as a warning for the safety of staff,other patients and of visitors.

Really? Under what statute?

[The Good Michael]

Norma,

I was only stating that a loving family, and especially a family of immigrants who may have felt a closeness that being aliens brings to people, would not have sent a harmless lad to Colney Hatch in my opinion. How he behaved in a sanatorium, and what officials were told, may have been different from what the family suspected or saw in the home. Committing someone would be one way to get him off the streets and keep him from being executed, preventing undo stress on a family and a community while protecting both from retaliation.

Cheers,

Mike

[Natalie Severn]

Simon,

That quote was in reference to Kosminski's insanity and dealt with voices he heard, but it doesn't make him harmless, nor do I think those comments are comparable to Anderson's words unless one really has a reason to read into what he said. My opinion is all it is.

Cheers,

Mike

What I suggested to Jeff was that he got his brother,who he said is an expert on schizophrenia,to look into some of the stuff Anderson got himself heavily involved in.I believe if you look into it you will see for yourself what I am referring too,but you do need to do that before making wild assertions about what I am referring to.I assure you I am completely serious.Look into the characteristics of a schizoid personality first.Then look into the manifestations of schizophrenia---which often happens if a person with a schizoid personality develops schizophrenia and begins to study unusual aspects of religion or religious symbolism.

With regards to Aaron Kosminski,there isnt even the faintest hint in his medical notes,beginning in 1892 on his admission to Colney Hatch,of him being any kind of "danger to others" and this is stated unequivocally by medical staff and is stated again later "harmless to others.
Make no mistake:when people talk about the medical teams at Colney Hatch or Leavesdon,in 1892 or any other time,having been willing to state in writing-as was the case,that Kosminski was "harmless" and "not a danger to others",but who nevertheless had been admitted with mental instability ,it would have been be a CRIMINAL OFFENCE had they the slightest suspicion he was a killer ,not to have declared their concern on medical notes as a warning for the safety of staff,other patients and of visitors.
Had there been just a small fear that he was violent to others,let alone Jack the Ripper, they would have been obliged to give that warning.People who state this was not the case are either ignorant of the hospital procedures in psychiatric hospitals including in 1892 or they are lying.
Best Wishes
Norma

[The Good Michael]

Simon,

That quote was in reference to Kosminski's insanity and dealt with voices he heard, but it doesn't make him harmless, nor do I think those comments are comparable to Anderson's words unless one really has a reason to read into what he said. My opinion is all it is.

Cheers,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Good Michael,

I'm not making a federal case here, but there's all kinds of madness. Religion just happens to be its most prevalent manifestation.

"Kosminski declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, he says that he knows the movements of all mankind . . ."

That's barely a stone's throw from Anderson's credo.

Regards,

Simon

[The Good Michael]

That's actually kind of insane suggesting that Anderson was some kind of madman and that Kosminski was harmless. As a rule, loving people don't commit brothers who are harmless to loony bins. If my brother drooled, masturbated, and heard voices, I'd take notes and write a book about it, and give him the porch to sleep on, but I'm not sending him to Colney hatch.

Cheers,

Mike