Mentor's Response to Anderson, "A more wicked assertion to put into print

[Stephen Thomas]

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Rape is never remotely a joking matter to women------ and neither should it be to men I might add!

Hi Norma

Yes, I know, and the post never inferred that.

An innocent person may have been hanged.

That's the point I was trying to make, albeit in a sarcastic way.

Stephen

[Natalie Severn]

Ap,
I totally agree.And I fully agree with you that Robert Anderson went out of his way to select what he called the "low class" Jew,in other words the "poor" Jew for villification, so being poor seemed the problem for him.Likewise with the women he refused his police officer"s protection-they were the very poorest unwaged women in the East End that he chose to attack.

[Cap'n Jack]

We must always take into account that what we do here is receptive to a world audience, and that some us may well be promoting the most vile and untoward prejudice against a group of people who were marked only by poverty and a strong will to escape injustice... and for this they are condemned and villified.
From the Stormfront with thanks to you:

'Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.A.Jurievich
World's most famous serial killer apears to be a Polish Jew.

http://www.casebook.org/suspects/davidcohen.html

Probably a good reason there was such great difficulty in identifying the killer during the investigaion, and even today, was because he was being shielded by his jew compatriots.

BTW, not to get off topic here, but shouldn't we as Europeans and European descendents stop using terms such as "Polish jew" or "Russian jew", etc.? This in my view denotes some membership or allegiance to the country these jews lived in. They in fact, have no allegiance to any host country they have lived in, as evidenced by their actions. They are simply "jew". I know in this PC society, we're expected to say such things as "african American", "German jew", or "chinese Canadian". But amongst ourselves at least, we should be referring to others as they truly are. black, jew, mexican, and the like. Let's stop making associations between those aliens in our midsts, and our resepective great White heritages.'

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Chris



Now what shall I do this morning? I'm starting a new business so I'll go out and have a coffee and then buy some tools and then employ a couple of those nice Gentile locals and then rape and murder the landlady. As one does.

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Stephen,

Rape is never remotely a joking matter to women------ and neither should it be to men I might add!

Norma

[Sam Flynn]

Surely not if he was simply stating a matter of fact, AP.

Or even a matter of belief, however deluded. Was Macnaghten being "doctorist" if he erred on the side of Druitt?

[Stephen Thomas]

Anderson was guilty of blaming the Jew, but he was quite specific about what kind of Jew he was blaming, and for me that makes him a racist of a special nature who knew exactly what he did.

Surely not if he was simply stating a matter of fact, AP.

[Cap'n Jack]

Funny enough I was just reading through an article which maintained that the most volatile and outspoken anti-Semitics in the LVP were the established British Jewry, who viewed the Polish Jews, and other recent arrivals as Polish or Russian, rather than Jews.
And I think this to be the smelly crutch piece of the matter. That snobs like Anderson were not Jew haters or baiters, on the contrary the established British Jewry were often their friends, equals or even masters... but the 'low' or 'Polish' Jew was an object of hatred, derision and fear to the same snobs.
Snobbery is always based on social class and racism, so yes, Stewart, we deal with snobbery here, but also a deep rooted mistrust and fear of Johnny Foreigner.
Anderson was guilty of blaming the Jew, but he was quite specific about what kind of Jew he was blaming, and for me that makes him a racist of a special nature who knew exactly what he did.

[Stewart P Evans]

Anglicised

I doubt anyone at the time,in any position of authority,and born an Englishman,would consider any race as equal.And Anderson,a Scotsman I believe,was of a nationality that thoght even an Englishman was inferior.

Anderson described himself as an 'anglicised Irishman of Scottish extraction' and was born in 1841 at his parents' home in Mountjoy Square, Dublin. He thus considered himself as English in character and was very much part of the English establishment. After moving there in 1867, he resided until his death in London.

[harry]

The Jews were as much reviled and hated in the 1930's,as they would have been in the 1880's.Through both periods,and in between,racism in England, was directed against all nationalities on a more or less equal basis.
It began in the schools,where in addition to the three normaly accepted 'R's,were added the three that had the most lasting influence.RACISM,RELIGON and ROYALTY.
This was especially so in the Grammer and private schools,and universities,where the leaders of the Public Services and Armed Forces had their beginnings.
I doubt anyone at the time,in any position of authority,and born an Englishman,would consider any race as equal.And Anderson,a Scotsman I believe,was of a nationality that thoght even an Englishman was inferior.

[Stewart P Evans]

Xenophobia

"Anti -semitism was prevalent in the heirarchy of the Metropoltan Police.Sir Robert Anderson,appointed Assistant Commissioner and Head of CID in September,was convinced the Ripper was a Jew"
William Fisher was a main speaker at the Museum of Docklands," Jack the Ripper and the East End",
He was writing of Robert Anderson"s "anti-semitism in 2005.
Racism/anti semitism is defined "in law" by those who it is" experienced by" not by those who are making the racist comments ---and who ofcourse will always deny it when cross questioned--as do those in the BNP for example.
Stewart,
Thankyou for your input here.However I am persuaded by the words of Goldberg,the editor of the Jewish Chronicle who clearly believed Robert Anderson was an anti - semite and thought so despite Sir Robert"s protestations.

Norma, I can obviously see that Anderson's words on his Ripper suspect were, and indeed could be, construed as anti-semitic. Also there is no doubt that a lot of newspapers carried anti-semitic pieces.

However, I feel that labelling Anderson as anti-semitic on the strength of his Ripper pronunciations only, could be over-reacting somewhat. I think that it tends more towards his Victorian Englishman's sense of superiority and general xenophobia.

I would feel more in agreement with you if you could find something more definitely anti-semitic that could be laid at Anderson's door, rather than people's opinions based on the nature of his Ripper allegations.

[Natalie Severn]

Sam, talk to Rob:

'A wave of hostility and anti-Semitism swept through London before, during, and after the trial of Israel Lipski. Everything from high unemployment to housing shortages was blamed on the Jews. On 24 August 1887, the Evening News expressed a prevailing sentiment when it stated: 'The low class of Polish Jews which Lipski belonged to are the pariahs of modern European life... In the districts blighted by their presence the standard of living and morality alike is lowered... For the man one may feel sorrow, but one cannot look with equanimity on this social cancer which is spreading in our midst, and is so baneful to all human progress.' 12

Yes,this sums up nicely the sentiments of Evening News.I have several other examples of ,mostly middle class,certainly literate and educated journalists
expressing exactly the same sentiments .Here is another:

The East London Observer:

[here this newspaper was expressing open contempt of the Jews and was demanding exclusion from their neighbourhood] :

"We are justified on the ground that they depreciate our home products and depress our markets.Their low state of civilization tends to demoralize whole populations of local workers"


Actually the first people suspicion fell on after ther murder of Polly Nichols were East European East End Jews.

--- again we have the East London Observer stating:

"no gentile could have perpetrated such a crime".......

After Annie Chapman"s murder on September 8 ,the police revealed they were looking for a "local Jew" and he [Pizer-aka Leather apron] was quickly arrested at his home in Mulberry Street,Whitechapel.The Manchester Guardian referred to his East European Appearance :swarthy face topped with strips of grizzly black hair and an expression full of terror -eyes small glittering, lips parted in a grin ,excessively repellent" .
In October 1888 ,Jewry itself was in the frame with the Times discussing how four years previously a Polish Jew, Ritter,had been arrested near Cracow for a ritualistic killing that was an obligatory part of the atonement a religious Jew needed to undertake to have sexual relations with a gentile.Here the Chief Rabbi had to quickly step in the explain such practices had no place in Judaism.
The Jewish Chronicle warned East End Jews that it might not be safe for them to venture outat night while the murders were in the news.

And ,most tellingly of all, we have the words of Professor William Fishman,a Jewish authority figure of today ,born and bred in the East End,who was present at the great battle of Cable Street fighting the Oswald Mosley"s fascists -and anti semites.


"Anti -semitism was prevalent in the heirarchy of the Metropoltan Police.Sir Robert Anderson,appointed Assistant Commissioner and Head of CID in September,was convinced the Ripper was a Jew"
William Fisher was a main speaker at the Museum of Docklands," Jack the Ripper and the East End",
He was writing of Robert Anderson"s "anti-semitism in 2005.



Racism/anti semitism is defined "in law" by those who it is" experienced by" not by those who are making the racist comments ---and who ofcourse will always deny it when cross questioned--as do those in the BNP for example.


Stewart,
Thankyou for your input here.However I am persuaded by the words of Goldberg,the editor of the Jewish Chronicle who clearly believed Robert Anderson was an anti - semite and thought so despite Sir Robert"s protestations.

[Stewart P Evans]

Anti-Semite

Anderson was undoubtedly very religious, dogmatic, opinionated and boastful. Although bigoted in some of his opinions, he has never really come across to me as particularly anti-Semite.

I think that Anderson was extremely class conscious and rated himself very highly on the social and intellectual ladder. Hence his reference to 'low-class Jews.' Jews whom Anderson considered to be at or around his own social standing and intellectual ability he apparently had no problem with. In the 1890's he was meeting with, and enjoying theological debate with, the Chief Rabbi, Dr Hermann Adler, as witness the following letter, dated 1895, in my collection of Anderson correspondence -

[Chris]

That last but one chapter where the Jewish authorities lean on Lipski to confess in order to do the British authorities a favour is a real eye-opener, isn't it?

It's an interesting speculation, but I don't think there's any suggestion that "the Jewish authorities" did any leaning - only (perhaps) Rabbi Singer on his own - and as I read it the motivation was more to do the Jewish community a favour.

(NB The two prospective employees accused by Lipski were also Jewish immigrants, not Gentiles.)

[Stephen Thomas]

Coincidentally I have just finished "The Trials of Israel Lipski" by Martin Friedland, which I would thoroughly recommend to anyone interested in the background to the Whitechapel Murders.

Hi Chris

Indeed, indeed, and lots of copies going cheap on Amazon UK, folks.

That last but one chapter where the Jewish authorities lean on Lipski to confess in order to do the British authorities a favour is a real eye-opener, isn't it?

Now what shall I do this morning? I'm starting a new business so I'll go out and have a coffee and then buy some tools and then employ a couple of those nice Gentile locals and then rape and murder the landlady. As one does.

[Chris]

again will get back to you on it but numbers of Jewish commentators and writers such as William Fishman have expressed,like Ap, their fears about the way that case was handled-in particular the reasons how the door was locked ,it being in a very poor condition, but also how a confession was made by Lipski - he was hanged the following day very unfortunate because it was just as public opinion was turning in favour of him due to the crusading campaigns of the journalist,WT Stead.

Please be aware that I am not saying that the conduct of the trial was acceptable, or even that I'm convinced Lipski was guilty. Friedland's conclusion - if I understand correctly - is that Lipski wasn't fairly tried, and that his guilt wasn't proved beyond reasonable doubt.

But that's not the same as saying that this was because of "institutional racism". As I said, I don't see any indication of that in Friedland's book.

The problem with interpretation seems to have arisen not out of any deliberate prejudice against Lipski, but because it seems to have been assumed that fluency in German would be a qualification for interpreting Yiddish. In fact on this basis Henry Matthews himself acted as an interpreter when one witness was examined during the post-trial deliberations about whether the sentence of death should be commuted.

I think this fact has an implication for some of the evidence about Jewish witnesses of the Whitechapel Murders - Schwartz springs to mind, if the language he spoke was Yiddish rather than "Hungarian".

Another striking feature is that Sir James Stephen, the judge, acknowledged that the conduct of the defence and his own summing up were not what they should have been, and in consequence bent over backwards to ensure that the possibility of a reprieve was fairly considered. Matthews postponed the execution for a week on Stephen's recommendation, to allow more time for consideration. Friedland prints evidence to show that both men were heartily relieved by the news that Lipski had confessed, because they found the decision such a difficult one.