Punishment

[Elamarna]

Quartering, Steve.

Regards, Pierre

No Pierre

quartering was part of the punishment, it was done so that body parts could be displayed around the country to deter others.

It was not further mutilation as you are suggesting, and had nothing to do with disfiguring of the face.:

"further mutilations / further mutilations (face / ears / etc).
"
It really is remarkable that you can never admit mistakes.

regards

[Pierre]

yes. one of the few things you are probably right about. LOL.

I am not interested in being "right" about things.

Regards, Pierre

[Abby Normal]

This is just a message in cyber space which will soon be forgotten.

Regards, Pierre

yes. one of the few things you are probably right about. LOL.

[Abby Normal]

Not to mention that you can not let other people say what they think without trying to interfere.

Hi Pierre
I find it hard to believe that after the length of time you have been on the boards and the number of responses and back in forth you have had with David that somehow you think he is trying to "interfere" with you.

From what I have seen from David, he is an excellent researcher, and his main motivation seems to accuracy of the facts and logical analysis of those facts. Getting personal, or the more personal aspects of debating, is something that he obviously (to me anyway) has no interest in.

Apparently people don't like to be challenged on their research or pointed out when they are wrong. Your not the only one. Ive seen well established Knowledgable people in Ripperology react the same way as you do when debating with David.

But Hes different. I thought you would have seen that by now, especially after his recent responses to you on the other thread when he graciously helped answer your questions about newspapers trustworthyness, eventhough you have had contentious replies to him.

David, if Ive misrepresented you here in anyway I apologize in advance, but that's how I see you IMHO.

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre
The ripper probably was, like most lust killers, acting on a fantasy motivation more so than a revenge or punishment motive. Sure there was probably some anger and hatred of women involved, but I think it had more to do with what "got him off" (for lack of a better word).
He ripped open women because he took some sort of pleasure from it, and the removal and taking away of the internal organs was for prolonging or reliving that fantasy motivation.

sorry Pierre, but it seems to me you have constructed an elaborate theory and set of ideas about your suspect, and are trying to fit evidence, and the analysis of the evidence into your preconceived notions. Its typical of suspect based ripperology, and seems more prevelant with the more far fetched theories and suspects.

This is just a message in cyber space which will soon be forgotten.

Regards, Pierre

[Abby Normal]

Jack the Ripper disembowelled nearly all his victims.

If we refrain from just trying to explain this with the idea that "he was mad” which says nothing about him, since we could look upon any serial killer and think he is mad, even when he is found totally sane, and try to understand the act of disembowelling in a couple of contexts as an act of punishment, where could this take us?

I give two examples here, both which include disembowelling among other things also performed by Jack the Ripper, one from an institutionalized ritual in the British legal system, and one from an institutionalized ritual in a family system.

A) In England disembowelling was used as a punishment for high treason, it was a sentence of the law. An example of that is to be found as late as in 1803 (Aberdeen Journal Wednesday 16 February, p. 2). There are probably even later cases.

Disembowelling as a part of a punishment called ”hanging, drawing and quartering” was abolished in England in 1870, only 18 years before the Ripper murders.

It had been used as a punishment since the 13th Century and could also include the burning of entrails.

“As part of the disembowelment, the criminal was also typically emasculated and his genitals and entrails would be burned.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disembowelment

The body of the criminals was also cut into pieces. Their remains were displayed in prominent places across the country, such as London Bridge. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged..._and_quartered)

B) In the second example disembowelling is also a type of punishment. In December 1877, two naked dead bodies were found outdoors, under a tree in Lucknow, India. (Morning Post, Tuesday 25 December, 1877). Both of the victims were headless, disembowelled and mutilated. They were the dead bodies of a young man and a young woman and the crime was understood to be an honour crime.

So what are the similarities between the Ripper murders and the acts containing disembowelling as a type of punishment?

In the case of the punishment of the legal system, we could find some similarities like:

1. the hanging of the criminal / the strangling of the victim
2. beheading the criminal / cutting he throat of the victim (in some cases down to the bone, nearly
severing the head)
3. disembowelling, often cutting out genitals / disembowelling, sometimes cutting out genitals
4. putting the criminals on display / leaving the victims visible outdoors or visible from a window
5. burning of entrails / only one possible indication: burning entrails in the room of Kelly
6. further mutilations / further mutilations (face / ears / etc)

In the case of the punishment of the family system, we could find some similarities like:

1 beheading the victim / cutting he throat of the victim (in some cases down to the bone, nearly severing the head)
2 disembowelling, often cutting out genitals / disembowelling, sometimes cutting out genitals
3 leaving the victims outdoors, visible, on display / leaving the victims visible outdoors, on display, or visible from a window
4 victims had no clothes / victims partially not covered with clothes
5 further mutilations / further mutilations (face / ears / etc)

So, the questions I would like to pose is:

Are there reasons to think that this serial killer wanted to punish women?

What does indicate this, and what doesn`t?

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre
The ripper probably was, like most lust killers, acting on a fantasy motivation more so than a revenge or punishment motive. Sure there was probably some anger and hatred of women involved, but I think it had more to do with what "got him off" (for lack of a better word).
He ripped open women because he took some sort of pleasure from it, and the removal and taking away of the internal organs was for prolonging or reliving that fantasy motivation.

sorry Pierre, but it seems to me you have constructed an elaborate theory and set of ideas about your suspect, and are trying to fit evidence, and the analysis of the evidence into your preconceived notions. Its typical of suspect based ripperology, and seems more prevelant with the more far fetched theories and suspects.

[Pierre]

Pierre

"Yes, and I said that we find "some similarities". Since he was not a machine set on "strangulation 100 percent"."


We can agree on that he was not a machine that is certain.
However we are left with of figure of 14.28% of victims strangled, do you have a low threshold where you discount any similarities?

"Three women disembowelled. Yes. "Some similarities"."

This time the figure is 42%, same question as above

"A frequency table?"

No Pierre, diagrams of the injuries. How would a frequency table show if decapitation had been attempted? I am interested to hear.


"And then Pierre is wrong! Hooray!"

Please my friend, stop saying it is personal when people disagree with you. it is not!
Is it personal when you disagree with me or others?, or course not.


"Havenīt even bothered to read it and donīt think it is of any interest. So I have not "left information out"."


Now that is an interesting statement, considering that your post #1 section A is based on the page quoted, which you have not just cut and pasted, so apparently you did read the source.
The only information you leave out from the first section of the source is about women being burned instead of being Hung, Drawn and Quartered.
Given that you are attempting to show similarities between the hanging and disembowelment of criminals punished in this manner and victims of 1888 who were all woman, who were specifically not historically killed in this manner how can it be unimportant?
Of course you do not see it as so, it apparently it does not fit your theory.

"Yes, any source about the fire in the grate. Read it in The Ultimate Sourcebook or in the Times. Since I said exactly: "only one possible indication". Why did you leave that out, Steve?"


On the contrary Pierre, I quote exactly what you said in your post #1 at the beginning 0f my post.

Could you please point out to me where in those sources you quote, suggest that entrails may have been burned?



"You already have the links in my original post."



That is very interesting Pierre, having checked those links, I cannot find any information about other mutilations which were carried out during the punishment of Hanging, Drawing and Quartering. could you please point them out



Regards,

Steve

Quartering, Steve.

Regards, Pierre

[wigngown]

Yes indeed, just like that.

[Fisherman]

Hello Pierre, thank you. I think the Killer will be identified at some point and when he is many will realise that there wasn't any complexity in the killings at all. There probably isn't any mass conspiracy, just one man filled with hatred, intent on making someone pay for something that had happened, or was happening in his life. People feared him, people wrote about him, and the Police were unable, as far as we know, to identify him. He was evil but he wasn't stupid. I've always believed everything played out as he intended. Best regards.

In the words of the late, great Tommy Cooper: Just like that!

[wigngown]

Hello Pierre, thank you. I think the Killer will be identified at some point and when he is many will realise that there wasn't any complexity in the killings at all. There probably isn't any mass conspiracy, just one man filled with hatred, intent on making someone pay for something that had happened, or was happening in his life. People feared him, people wrote about him, and the Police were unable, as far as we know, to identify him. He was evil but he wasn't stupid. I've always believed everything played out as he intended. Best regards.

[Elamarna]

Pierre

"Yes, and I said that we find "some similarities". Since he was not a machine set on "strangulation 100 percent"."


We can agree on that he was not a machine that is certain.
However we are left with of figure of 14.28% of victims strangled, do you have a low threshold where you discount any similarities?

"Three women disembowelled. Yes. "Some similarities"."

This time the figure is 42%, same question as above

"A frequency table?"

No Pierre, diagrams of the injuries. How would a frequency table show if decapitation had been attempted? I am interested to hear.


"And then Pierre is wrong! Hooray!"

Please my friend, stop saying it is personal when people disagree with you. it is not!
Is it personal when you disagree with me or others?, or course not.


"Havenīt even bothered to read it and donīt think it is of any interest. So I have not "left information out"."


Now that is an interesting statement, considering that your post #1 section A is based on the page quoted, which you have not just cut and pasted, so apparently you did read the source.
The only information you leave out from the first section of the source is about women being burned instead of being Hung, Drawn and Quartered.
Given that you are attempting to show similarities between the hanging and disembowelment of criminals punished in this manner and victims of 1888 who were all woman, who were specifically not historically killed in this manner how can it be unimportant?
Of course you do not see it as so, it apparently it does not fit your theory.

"Yes, any source about the fire in the grate. Read it in The Ultimate Sourcebook or in the Times. Since I said exactly: "only one possible indication". Why did you leave that out, Steve?"


On the contrary Pierre, I quote exactly what you said in your post #1 at the beginning 0f my post.

Could you please point out to me where in those sources you quote, suggest that entrails may have been burned?



"You already have the links in my original post."



That is very interesting Pierre, having checked those links, I cannot find any information about other mutilations which were carried out during the punishment of Hanging, Drawing and Quartering. could you please point them out



Regards,

Steve

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;373627]Pierre

I would like to make some comments on what you have posted,

Hi Steve, great to see you here.

"In the case of the punishment of the legal system, we could find some similarities like:"

"1. the hanging of the criminal / the strangling of the victim
2. beheading the criminal / cutting he throat of the victim (in some cases down to the bone, nearly
severing the head)
3. disembowelling, often cutting out genitals / disembowelling, sometimes cutting out genitals
4. putting the criminals on display / leaving the victims visible outdoors or visible from a window
5. burning of entrails / only one possible indication: burning entrails in the room of Kelly
6. further mutilations / further mutilations (face / ears / etc)"



I will attempt to answer by point

1. Of the ripper victims you include, only Chapman can be said to have conclusive evidence of at least partial strangulation.
Nichols possible, but this seems to be based on her missing some teeth, laceration of the tongue and some bruising under her jaw, this is not conclusive.

Yes, and I said that we find "some similarities". Since he was not a machine set on "strangulation 100 percent".

Stride was probably pulled back by the scarf she was wearing before her throat was cut. but she was not strangled!
Eddowes appears not to have have been strangled and in the case of Kelly it seems unlikely.

I agree with you that it seems unlikely that Kelly was strangled. But that is an interesting question - what is the evidence? Anyone?

2. I do not see the link between beheading and throat cutting.
Despite what has been misreported over the years only Chapman nearly had her head removed.

As I said: we could find some similarities. Why donīt we do this scientifically (in your case that would mean which science?) and go through all the evidence and than we make frequency tables? This is better than "I donīt see...".

The work Cutthroat provides diagrams making this clear:

http://www.karyom.com/Cutthroat.pdf

A frequency table?

3. I am not sure the the uterus counts as genitalia, however even if you do count it, can I point out the following

According to me it does. Reproductive part of body.

originally you named the canonic five, plus Mackenzie, you were unsure about Tabram as I recall. (I am leaving the torso's out for the moment.)

Of those only 3 out of 6 can be said to have been disembowelled,

Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.

Three women disembowelled. Yes. "Some similarities".

Nichols had cuts to the abdomen and at the mortuary the intestines were said to be protruding from the cuts.
It is not known if this is how she was found, or the result of the handling the body on the way to the mortuary. she cannot therefore be described as disembowelled.

Stride certainly was not, nor was Mackenzie. If you do count Tabram, we have only 3 out of seven disembowelled.

And if we postulate that the type of disembowelment in the examples given was something entirely different, we have 0-zero-zip disembowelments! And then Pierre is wrong! Hooray!

However of far more importance is the fact that the punishment of Hanging Drawing and Quartering was not carried out on women.

This is Of Far More Importance. Oh dear.

Given that you have used, and quoted from the same source as myself can I respectfully ask why you left this information out?

Havenīt even bothered to read it and donīt think it is of any interest. So I have not "left information out".

" For reasons of public decency, women convicted of high treason were instead burned at the stake."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged..._and_quartered.

4. The body parts were sent to major cities/ areas from which the criminal had come. the parts were publicly displayed by hanging from a hight or by being impaled on a spike.

I see not link between this and leaving the bodies where they were killed.

Of course you donīt, Steve. Of course you donīt.

5. Can I ask a question you often do? Can you please provide a source for the supposed burning of entrails in Kelly room?

Yes, any source about the fire in the grate. Read it in The Ultimate Sourcebook or in the Times. Since I said exactly: "only one possible indication". Why did you leave that out, Steve?

6. you mention further mutilation of the victims of Hanging, Drawing and Quartering, what are these? can you provide a source please?

You already have the links in my original post.

I have to say that I see no links at all between the murders and the punishment you have highlighted.

Of course you donīt Steve. Hope that makes you feel better now.

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Pierre

I would like to make some comments on what you have posted,


"In the case of the punishment of the legal system, we could find some similarities like:"

"1. the hanging of the criminal / the strangling of the victim
2. beheading the criminal / cutting he throat of the victim (in some cases down to the bone, nearly
severing the head)
3. disembowelling, often cutting out genitals / disembowelling, sometimes cutting out genitals
4. putting the criminals on display / leaving the victims visible outdoors or visible from a window
5. burning of entrails / only one possible indication: burning entrails in the room of Kelly
6. further mutilations / further mutilations (face / ears / etc)"



I will attempt to answer by point

1. Of the ripper victims you include, only Chapman can be said to have conclusive evidence of at least partial strangulation.
Nichols possible, but this seems to be based on her missing some teeth, laceration of the tongue and some bruising under her jaw, this is not conclusive.

Stride was probably pulled back by the scarf she was wearing before her throat was cut. but she was not strangled!
Eddowes appears not to have have been strangled and in the case of Kelly it seems unlikely.

2. I do not see the link between beheading and throat cutting.
Despite what has been misreported over the years only Chapman nearly had her head removed.

The work Cutthroat provides diagrams making this clear:

http://www.karyom.com/Cutthroat.pdf

3. I am not sure the the uterus counts as genitalia, however even if you do count it, can I point out the following

originally you named the canonic five, plus Mackenzie, you were unsure about Tabram as I recall. (I am leaving the torso's out for the moment.)


Of those only 3 out of 6 can be said to have been disembowelled, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.

Nichols had cuts to the abdomen and at the mortuary the intestines were said to be protruding from the cuts.
It is not known if this is how she was found, or the result of the handling the body on the way to the mortuary. she cannot therefore be described as disembowelled.

Stride certainly was not, nor was Mackenzie. If you do count Tabram, we have only 3 out of seven disembowelled.

However of far more importance is the fact that the punishment of Hanging Drawing and Quartering was not carried out on women.

Given that you have used, and quoted from the same source as myself can I respectfully ask why you left this information out?


" For reasons of public decency, women convicted of high treason were instead burned at the stake."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged..._and_quartered.


4. The body parts were sent to major cities/ areas from which the criminal had come. the parts were publicly displayed by hanging from a hight or by being impaled on a spike.

I see not link between this and leaving the bodies where they were killed.

5. Can I ask a question you often do? Can you please provide a source for the supposed burning of entrails in Kelly room?

6. you mention further mutilation of the victims of Hanging, Drawing and Quartering, what are these? can you provide a source please?


I have to say that I see no links at all between the murders and the punishment you have highlighted.

[Pierre]

Hello Pierre, the Killer may have been wronged by a woman in the past, or was still being wronged by her when he murdered those women.

I agree with you 100 percent.

He didn't kill the object of his rage because he was perhaps unable to, for whatever reason.

I agree totally with you again.

Many factors could have triggered this rage he felt.

I also think in terms of a trigger and agree absolutely.

Certainly, the mutilations would indicate some deep set hatred but I've always believed that the victims were a means for him to vent his anger as opposed to them being the sole object of it.

I can only agree with you again.

I've always thought that he enjoyed his notoriety, he enjoyed creating a sense of fear, in addition to making the Police look impotent.

And again. Sorry for becoming repetitious.

Just my thoughts.

You thoughts are very good.

Best regards.

Kind regards, Pierre

[wigngown]

Hello David, yes indeed it could. Best regards.