Working position of the killer

[JadenCollins]

C4, you amaze me with your such kind posts

[Rosella]

^ John McCarthy in his Inquest testimony on Mary Kelly deposed the rent for Mary's room 'was supposed to be 4s and 6d a week. Deceased was in arrears 29s. I was to be paid the rent weekly. Arrears are got the best you can.'

Mary and Joe had probably ceased paying the rent when he lost his job. As 29s is an odd total Mary may have paid a sixpence here and there to try and get the arrears down, without much success.

[Michael W Richards]

Regards Pierre[/B]

Im ok with you disagreeing Pierre, I can see that you have some ideas that pivot on this particular point. However all the contemporary references to that wall, and some made a few years later, support my statement that the wall was constructed of scrap materials including an old door from the shed with a faded 26 on it. There was no access through Marys partition wall unless it was breached forcibly, and the fact that it is stated that it was made by using scrap fits well with a room that was rented to Mary for about 10-12d a week when Unfortunates paid 4d for a bed for one night. Mary was in arrears for about 2 1/2 weeks to the tune of 28d.

The killer entered room 13 via one of the alcove windows or the door to Millers Court. The only access to the interior of 26 was the doorway inside the archway, not via the shed.

[Pierre]

To add, many lodging house doors that faced streets like Dorset used the front door as a means to access storage, where carts from the street could offload goods for the house to be stored.

Not talking about offloading goods here. Talking about the Whitechapel killer.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I think you need to read some more reports about this.

" A partition had been erected cutting it off from the house, and the entrance door opened into Miller's court"

Hi Michael,

I disagree on everything you say here. I think we should not read any more of the same talk about Millerīs Court but we should start questioning things.

MJK1 for instance. It is believed to be the best description of the murder site. MJK3 is sometimes thought to be a fraud.

I say we should hypothesize that MJK3 is the most important photograph and MJK1 is not.

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

To add, many lodging house doors that faced streets like Dorset used the front door as a means to access storage, where carts from the street could offload goods for the house to be stored.

[Michael W Richards]

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I know that you've convinced yourself that a fixed door on a wall is actually a usable door, but that's simply not the case here, so I cant see your arguments holding water. The partition wall was made by scrap materials, including the old front door to #26, which accessed the shed. It was not hung..it was nailed. I think you need to read some more reports about this.

" A partition had been erected cutting it off from the house, and the entrance door opened into Miller's court"

The "barricaded" windows at 26 Dorset likely referred to the 2 windows in Marys room that faced the alcove, not the 2 windows facing Dorset. We have pictorial evidence of that as well. There would be no reason to block access or views from the street, the door marked 26 accessed the shed, and room 13 could not be accessed without going into the courtyard via the archway...which was guarded.

I understand that youll disagree, but I am certain about whats being stated here. Once you've studied these things straight up, upside down and sideways over 30 plus years you tend to get pretty familiar with the actual territory. The killer came in via the windows or the door......and not down the chimney either.

[Pierre]

The working position of the killer in room 13 depends on a few variables, like what was his predominant hand for one. What can be said is that;

a) There is insufficient room between the bed and the partition wall for the killer to have worked from there. Plus some of the bedding is stuffed down beside the bed, wedged against the partition wall.

> If he came in through the door between number 26 and 13 he would have all the space he needed.

b) The evidence suggests Marys throat cut sent arterial spray onto the partition wall, which indicates that she was on the r/h side of the bed when it happened...likely facing the wall.

>I agree. The killer could have closed the door behind him just enough to be able to cut her throat. The arterial spray would then partly reach the door.

c) Unless the killers right arm was under her neck or head the right side of her artery could not be accessed using the right hand, from the left of the body, which is the probable location, due to the lack of space on the right. The cut was evidently made from right to left, suggesting her right artery caused the spray on the wall

> The killer coming in from number 26 and standing beside the bed solves all these problems.

d) The killer must have moved the body into the middle of the bed, if she was on her right side during the attack, that could be accomplished simply by rolling her left, onto her back.

> Making space for himself to work from left to right after having barricaded the entrance door with the table and the bed.

e) The killer would have his back to the windows, and the door, while working.

> Only at the windows.

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

The working position of the killer in room 13 depends on a few variables, like what was his predominant hand for one. What can be said is that;

a) There is insufficient room between the bed and the partition wall for the killer to have worked from there. Plus some of the bedding is stuffed down beside the bed, wedged against the partition wall.
b) The evidence suggests Marys throat cut sent arterial spray onto the partition wall, which indicates that she was on the r/h side of the bed when it happened...likely facing the wall.
c) Unless the killers right arm was under her neck or head the right side of her artery could not be accessed using the right hand, from the left of the body, which is the probable location, due to the lack of space on the right. The cut was evidently made from right to left, suggesting her right artery caused the spray on the wall
d) The killer must have moved the body into the middle of the bed, if she was on her right side during the attack, that could be accomplished simply by rolling her left, onto her back.
e) The killer would have his back to the windows, and the door, while working.

[Pierre]

Pierre,

If the table and bed are pushed against the door to prevent intruders entering - as postulated by you in another thread - how is there room for the killer to stand by the table when carrying out his diabolical dissection?

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to stand the other side of the bed? The side on which he (according to your theory) entered no. 13, the side he pushed the furniture from and the side Mary was lying when attacked. Why would he clamber over the bed to stand in a cramped corner?

Hi,

The red circle marks the space for his working area. He then had the victim on the right side (he was probably right handed).

Regards Pierre

[Joshua Rogan]

Pierre,

If the table and bed are pushed against the door to prevent intruders entering - as postulated by you in another thread - how is there room for the killer to stand by the table when carrying out his diabolical dissection? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to stand the other side of the bed? The side on which he (according to your theory) entered no. 13, the side he pushed the furniture from and the side Mary was lying when attacked. Why would he clamber over the bed to stand in a cramped corner?

[Brenda]

.

There is a huge thread somewhere on Casebook about the possibility that MJK3 is a fraud. I'm afraid I don't have time to look for it right now, but it's out there.

It is a very unpopular opinion to think this photo is a fraud. I remember a poster being roasted for daring to even question it. However, it IS a very strange photo that raises a lot more questions than it answers.

I personally don't think the photo is an intentional fraud. If I remember correctly, the photo was in the possession of a man who was giving speeches about the murders. I think there's a chance the photo could be a mock-up to demonstrate a point the speaker was making regarding the murders.

I do think it would be wise to be cautious when relying on this particular photo as concrete evidence.

[DJA]

You just did....again!

Edit. D'oh!

[curious4]

Pierre

item 1, you are looking in MJK3 at an angle over the lower body towards the table., From this position the corner of the table is directly behind the area you circle. Therefore if looking overhead straight down onto the body, the table corner is roughly in line with waist area, that is just basic physics. With regards to MJK1 this is a fairly wide angle shot compared to MJK3, it is very clear where the corner edge lines up. That is my opinion having spent a fair amount of years having photography as a hobby.

With regards to points two and three you are already aware of the answers to these, we have discussed them on another thread, just to remind you: Simon Woods dissertation and several threads by SGH and others.
There is no firm agreement by any of the posters on if the bed as been moved or the photo is a fake. much would depend on the type of plate and lens used. although we could guess the answers to these questions the truth is we do not know.
On threads on MJK3 it has been suggested that the left hand and right leg areas have been photographically manipulated, this would imply a fake and therefore no more need be said

Final point, if the photos line up, and the hand position is the same it suggests, no more than that, any movement to the bed was minimal and does not back that MJK3 is a fake. however, this is a very big if, it is still open to interpretation.
I am honest enough to say i do not know 100% if the bed was moved, but my view is that if it was it was not moved by more than a few inches, not half way across the room

Please note when asked for sources of info some of us respond unlike someone.
I have decided not to reply to any more posts by you, it is a waste of time.
people are being turned off of this site, you claim you are here to unburden yourself. if that is true why do you post so many threads?

i suggest we all ignore you.

I second that. Please stop feeding the troll!

C4

[Elamarna]

Mystery Singer,

thank you for the image on the other thread, i see what you mean however i am not convinced, but it is possible. My reservations are due to the fact that the area is very unclear and it is known that the eye can see stuff which actually isn't there.
it is an interesting idea you put forward and i will spend some time
reconsidering it.

The real problem with both the pictures is not having a full view of the room, not knowing the plate size or lens used.

regards

steve