What was the IQ of Jack?!

Hi Craig,

It the reason I chose to use the word "many", as it is imprecise. Since I dont know statistically the number of serial killers who have been studied and shown to have above average intelligence. But there sems to be a few Bundys and BTK's, who I believe were of above average intelligence..as there are Henry Lee Lucas's and Jeffrey Dahlmers, who I would surmise were not.

As I said before also, the answer as to whether these were just very fortunate.... or precisely timed events, would to me, be part of the litmus test on Jacks cognitive abilities. Being stealthy or quiet doesnt require much intellect....but if for example he chose Kate knowing that 2 PC's will be looking into that same location in less than 10 minutes, and he intended to take organs away, I would think he might have some skill and intelligence, balancing concentrating on the acts he is performing, his surroundings, as well as killing the woman quietly and remaining as blood free as possible.

Efficient multi-tasking is an indicator of intelligence.

But I think access to some local routing knowledge and knowledge of police routines, coupled with some Luck might be allow a simple minded man to appear a genius. I think he may have left underground on occassions as well, which may not have anything to do with intelligence but rather speaks to a comfort zone for him.... for me, there is really no smoking gun that points to above average intelligence.

Some skill with a knife, and knowing where to find things internally arent necessasarily linked to how bright he may or may not have been, but I do think those signs are there.

Cheers

[CraigInTwinCities]

Many Killers are above average in intelligence, particulalry in serial murder.

"Many" is a wonderfully imprecise word choice there, Perry, but I don't think the evidence supports your supposition. Of the serial murderers who HAVE been caught, there seems to be a majority who are of below average IQ, not above....

...But I made my point earlier about that and won't belabor it here.

I think Rob and Christine that perhaps a link of brilliance with logic...or acheivement, is the optimum profile, ...its my belief that someone can be a murderer, clinically insane, irrational, a failure, a alcoholic, heroin addict,..and still test highly on an IQ Test.

Not all Brilliant people optimize their lives using their god gifts, and Im sure many behave in self destructive ways. My guess is Robert Downey Junior is of above average intelligence, but look at his life. Jack could well have tested genius level, and been an unemployed vagrant who dies of liver failure. Many Killers are above average in intelligence, particulalry in serial murder.

Its whether there is evidence that such talents were used optimally by the killer or not I think. Did he control his environment? If he planned for example, he seems to have done a fairly good job....judging by the fact were here 120 years later still without answers.

Sheer luck means a person with a 50 IQ might have pulled them off...a planning person is a bit further up the food chain. But they do stupid things too.

Cheers.

[Robert]

Hi Christine

Yes, I wouldn't expect to find him at either extreme of the intelligence spectrum. As for how could he be smart but think that killing women was a good idea, well, smart at what? Stalin and Hitler thought killing millions of people was a good idea. They were both supreme political tacticians and manipulators. And they both believed in truly infantile, idiotic philosophies.

There's nowt so queer as folk!

Robert

[Christine]

Well, I doubt he was an idiot, in the literal sense of the word.

I also doubt he was a genius, even in the "brilliant salesman" or "genius hairstylist" way. He must have been deranged. How can you say someone was truly smart when he thought killing women was a good idea? He probably had some sort of brain damage that effected his judgment and impulse control, and this would have shown up in other areas of his life.

Anyhow, IQ is straightforward. It's a score on a test that hadn't even been invented when Jack was active. It's a good predictor of academic performance, and a decent predictor of job performance, especially if the job requires academic ability (duh). There's very little we can say about Jack's IQ other than the general "if he was brain damaged..." statement. Unless he was Montague Druitt or Lewis Carroll, who seem to have had high IQ.

As far as outsmarting the police...that shows a certain amount of intelligence, but maybe not as much as you'd think. It's not a equal competition. He was motivated by the desire not be caught and executed, and he got to pick the circumstances. If there was evidence pointing to him, it was because HE left it. If there were witnesses, it was because HE stood in front of them. If there were geographic and temporal patterns, it was because HE acted in a certain place and time.

I think a lot of us on this board could kill and mutilate people in a way that that police couldn't track down, and do even better than Jack. Certainly none of us would do something as lame as send an identifiable floppy disk to the police. Except that we'd object to the whole "kill and mutilate" part. Does that make us all smarter than Jack to begin with?

PS: That bit about "genius hairstylist" had me visualizing Kosminiski saying "I'll just hack off all your hair with this knife and put it by your feet!" A good illustration of why I don't think Jack would have been known as a brilliant anything.

[Robert]

I suppose one must allow for a certain police bias in assessing the intelligence of serial killers - they won't like to admit that they've been led a merry dance by an idiot.

Robert

Theres good reason to imagine that people who might test highly on an IQ Test are from all walks of life...including those occupations the lower classes might toil in...so theres no reason to imagine that a toothless docker wasnt capable of very clever thought or brilliance even.

That being said, I dont think we necessarily have events or circumstances that are more than some very fortunate "timings" in the killers favour. He seems to come and go very successfully. Leaving just in the nick of time at perhaps 2 or 3 Canon deaths.

That might mean escape planning, but thats not too difficult if you know the variables. Some of the variables in these cases are the police coverage of locations. Did he know the variables? And what of the plainclothed and vigilantees? How do you plan for them?

I think he was really, really lucky....or perhaps someone a bit anal on details. That second one would fit a guy who doesnt want to be stopped.

Best regards all.

[Natalie Severn]

That gave me a good laugh Robert Cheers!

[Robert]

Hi Nats

There are all kinds of problems with IQ tests, not the least of them being that it's possible to train for them, because the people setting them aren't clever enough to think up new kinds of question.

I have managed to obtain, in a very expensive auction on Ebay, two tests from yesteryear, with the answers. The first is from 1912 :

"You are a Government minister rersponsible for shipping. Should you let passenger liners set sail without enough lifeboats?"

The correct answer is "Yes, you SHOULD." This answer would have earned you a genius level rating. The alternative answer, "No, it's a bit risky" only earns you moron status.

The other test is from 1914-18 :

"You are a commanding officer in the Army. Should you keep sending men over the top? NB The enemy have machine guns."

The correct answer is "Yes, you SHOULD." This earns you a brilliant rating. The alternative answer, "Senseless waste of life" apparently makes you a moron.

Oi think oi'll leave IQ tests to brilliant politicians and generals. Them tests be too clever for such as oi.

Robert

[Natalie Severn]

----- good thinking Robert and neatly put......quite right .One of the main IQ tests that was given to children was called a "verbal reasoning" test.Maybe thats OK , if a child"s home language matches the language of the classroom [and therefore text book language] which is usually the case for many children from middle class backgrounds but when the child comes from a home background where the language spoken is not that of "middle England" then there can be a "mismatch" and a child"s performance on a "verbal" reasoning test becomes less reliable because such a child is less likely to do as well as a middle class child whose spoken and written language matches that of the school and the verbal test.

[Robert]

I don't really know what is meant by a high IQ. It could be argued that anyone from the poorer classes who managed to survive at all in East London during that period, without the safety net of the welfare state, would have been possesssed of sharp wits at least. That's not to say that any of those people would necessarily have been able to master, say, university physics, even if they'd been given the time and education. I just find the idea of IQ rather nebulous.

The opposite is a lot easier to define - a stupid person isn't someone who doesn't have any answers - it's someone who doesn't have any questions.

Robert

[CraigInTwinCities]

Hate to say it, but this post is wrong in SO many ways.

The image of a high-IQ is VASTLY overrated. Lt. Ken Landwehr, who headed the team that captured BTK, commented that after his capture, it quickly became clear that Rader was both lucky and not very bright, rather than a criminal mastermind.

The list of serials who are similarly lacking in IQ is a long one, and those who are considered of high IQ may be the beneficiaries of good press, rather than actual high IQs. As Landwehr has said, all a person really needs to do is have no connection to the victim, be careful not to leave behind evidence, wipe stuff down and keep their mouth shut about what they've done and often they'll get away with it.

I have a direct quote on another thread, so I'm not going to copy that here.

Crime was a lot easier to get away with in Jack's time... they didn't even embrace fingerprinting yet... although photographing the eyes of victims was apparently all the rage... LOL.

So no, the nature of the crime is absolutely no indication of a high IQ, or a low IQ. We'd only be able to determine that once we had "Jack" in hand and even then it might not be all that relevant. Wichita Police, the KBI and the FBI were all expecting BTK to be a real-life Hannible Lecter... and were vastly disappointed by Rader, once they caught him, on that point.

[Ben]

Hi Dougie,

and how clever would one have to be to realise whitechapel wasnt the best place to be if one had talent and ability

It's perfectly possible to hail from the lower classes, live in a rough area, work at a menial job, and still be endowed of above average intelligence. This would have held true especially for the LVP when class bounderies and prejudices were much harder to surmount than they are today.

Best regards,
Ben

[dougie]

Ben ,
Would he need to have a high I.Q to get away with these crimes in your opinion? and how clever would one have to be to realise whitechapel wasnt the best place to be if one had talent and ability ...and high intelligence?
regards

[Ben]

And if he was a clever guy with a high I.Q what on earth would he be doing wasting his time in 1888 whitechapel?....

Because he lived and worked there, most probably, Dougie.