Ecchymosis, swollen tongues, severed windpipes and blood loss

[lynn cates]

getting to the heart of it

Hello Jon. Your reasoning indicates WHY you are a man after my own heart.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

The facial bruises do suggest a hand over the mouth, but if you envisage the application, if the man is standing behind her, and his right hand is over her mouth, then the bruises must be high up on the face, thumb over right cheekbone, fingertips over left cheekbone (or with left hand, vice versa)
The bruises are described as being low down on the face, ie; cheek & jawbone.

I find it hard to imagine the killer standing in front of her with his hand over her mouth and still being able to slice her throat.

The bruises on Nichols face appear to me to be here:




Which suggests to me the hand was placed thus:




Which in turn suggests she is already laid on the ground, so how did he get her there?

[Jon Guy]

I'd agree, the bruises on Nichols face suggest this. I do not believe she was strangled..

Agreed. The hand over mouth and nose may explain the appearance of her nose in the mortuary photo.

[Observer]

I'd have rather tackled her when sober

[GUT]

Mary Kelly would have a handful. Strength, and above all speed would have rendered her useless though.

plus the fact that she may have been as drunk as a skunk.

[Observer]

Hi No Luck Yet
Yes, that`s how I see it going down. Maybe with the left hand over the mouth and nose whilst he made the throat cut.

I'd agree, the bruises on Nichols face suggest this. I do not believe she was strangled.

Just strength. The victims were generally all quite slight, ill or drunk, and vulnerable to any male with above average strength and the inclination.

Mary Kelly would have a handful. Strength, and above all speed would have rendered her useless though.

[Jon Guy]

Hi No Luck Yet

Thank you for clarifying, sir. It seems then I was picturing more or less what you were saying, going by his "swinging Stride about" - he'd pretty much just throw them down and then pin them and cut the throat? And hope to avoid the noise and struggle pretty much just by that strength and speed??

Yes, that`s how I see it going down. Maybe with the left hand over the mouth and nose whilst he made the throat cut.

The other possibility that occurred to me would have been his wrestling them down. It seemed that would give him more control, but then he'd wind up on the ground too and would probably get pretty dirty...?

If he wrestled them down he could have used his own weight to pin them down, which would leave his hands free.

May I ask one more question, though? Do you see skill in this maneuver, or just strength? And if there's skill, does that suggest to you any particular trade, or anything of that nature? That the killer would have been familiar with fighting or restraints? Or just that he was strong?

Just strength. The victims were generally all quite slight, ill or drunk, and vulnerable to any male with above average strength and the inclination.

If I associated any trade with the killer it would be an animal slaughterer of some kind. Only because he knew how to handle a knife, and rolled the victims onto their left side to avoid arterial spray. Of course, the basic knowledge of internal organs seems to be present too.

What do you think ?
Do you see evidence of skill or a trade?

[Jon Guy]

One example: According to reports Dr Gordon Brown conducted a test using an associate who's job it was to remove the uterus.
We read that the subject in question managed to complete those mutilations in three minutes, but in the process he did injure the bladder.
The killer did not injure the bladder.

Thanks for that, Jon. I saw that newspaper article, over on JTRForums, I believe. Gems like this article confirm that there was a lot unreported stuff going on with the medicos. Especially with Dr Brown, who seems to have immersed himself in the case following Eddowes murder.

[Wickerman]

We can only follow the clues, as given by the doctors, and what I glean from the doctors reports is that the killer was powerful and very quick.

One example: According to reports Dr Gordon Brown conducted a test using an associate who's job it was to remove the uterus.
We read that the subject in question managed to complete those mutilations in three minutes, but in the process he did injure the bladder.
The killer did not injure the bladder.

[Observer]

Agree with all of the above Jon regarding the opening stages of the assault upon the victims.

[Observer]

May I ask one more question, though? Do you see skill in this maneuver, or just strength? And if there's skill, does that suggest to you any particular trade, or anything of that nature? That the killer would have been familiar with fighting or restraints? Or just that he was strong?

A very good question NLY. Something I've always marvelled at is the speed and efficiency the murderer displayed from Nichols on. He certainly seems to have hit the ground running. It makes you wonder if he had any experience in street crime of a violent nature.

He was certainly a very strong individual.

Then again, no one witnessed any of the assaults, they might not have been as efficient as the evidence suggests.

[No Luck Yet]

Hello No Luck Yet,

Yes, I would expect a fight back and screaming.
But, in the case of McKenzie it was noted by the doctors that there was no physical reason for McKenzie not to cry out, other than her going into shock.

The case of McKenzie may be a clue as to how the killer operated.


We can only follow the clues, as given by the doctors, and what I glean from the doctors reports is that the killer was powerful and very quick.

To be honest, I wouldn`t be surprised if there was a bigger ruckus
than most of us imagine taking place. For example, was that the Ripper swinging Stride about ? How did Tabram get that bang on her head. Did Mrs Lilley overhear Nichols murder from her bed ? Did Kelly shout out and retreat to the corner of her bed as she tried to defend herself ?

Thank you for clarifying, sir. It seems then I was picturing more or less what you were saying, going by his "swinging Stride about" - he'd pretty much just throw them down and then pin them and cut the throat? And hope to avoid the noise and struggle pretty much just by that strength and speed?

The other possibility that occurred to me would have been his wrestling them down. It seemed that would give him more control, but then he'd wind up on the ground too and would probably get pretty dirty...

May I ask one more question, though? Do you see skill in this maneuver, or just strength? And if there's skill, does that suggest to you any particular trade, or anything of that nature? That the killer would have been familiar with fighting or restraints? Or just that he was strong?

[Jon Guy]

Regardless of the specific m.o., to me these details bring back the very real possibility that mutilations began while the victims were still alive and possibly conscious. Quite frightening.

I don`t know about the mutilations, Barnaby, but maybe the throats were cut whilst still conscious.

[Jon Guy]

Hello No Luck Yet,

Agreed that a strong man certainly could have thrown the women down, whether out of the blue, or braced against a fence, or on the way to said fence, or however. But if she was still alive and was shoved to the ground, wouldn't you expect her to scream? A lot? And besides that, to fight tooth and nail to get back up?

Yes, I would expect a fight back and screaming.
But, in the case of McKenzie it was noted by the doctors that there was no physical reason for McKenzie not to cry out, other than her going into shock.

The case of McKenzie may be a clue as to how the killer operated.

Would Jack have been able to cover their mouths while lowering them down? And if he then needed to adjust his grip to pin them in the right position and draw his knife, would he still be able to keep them still and quiet? That's what seems like the awkward part.?)

We can only follow the clues, as given by the doctors, and what I glean from the doctors reports is that the killer was powerful and very quick.

I just wondered if perhaps you were picturing something a little different than I was, or if, perhaps, he was just confident enough that he didn't care if they screamed? (I know some did cry out, but again, given any opportunity to struggle, wouldn't you expect a bigger ruckus?)

To be honest, I wouldn`t be surprised if there was a bigger ruckus
than most of us imagine taking place. For example, was that the Ripper swinging Stride about ? How did Tabram get that bang on her head. Did Mrs Lilley overhear Nichols murder from her bed ? Did Kelly shout out and retreat to the corner of her bed as she tried to defend herself ?

[Barnaby]

I think we all agree that Jack wasn't a torturer and killing was simply a means to an end. What the end is, of course, is debatable.

Because of this probably correct belief and the presence of throat cuts, I know that I often fall into the "death was rather instantaneous" mindset.

Regardless of the specific m.o., to me these details bring back the very real possibility that mutilations began while the victims were still alive and possibly conscious. Quite frightening.