Older Then Younger Victims

[Mark J D]

Hello Mark,

It’s always good to talk to fellow Suspectologists. Mrs Lechmere was also 39. Does a Lechmerian discount an age-appropriate Substitution Killing by the Ripper for his wife?

Hi again. TBH, I don't think there's such a thing as 'a Lechmerian' as yet: I don't think either Edward or Christer -- not to mention the other folks I know who work on this -- agree with some of the wilder scenarios I've constructed to fit the data into. And -- to get to your question -- generally I don't 'discount' or 'exclude' things: everything I think of or hear about, however batshit it seems, goes in one scenario or another... But re. substitution-killings: do you have a favoured text/study/database I can look at? With Lechmere, I have so far mostly concentrated on the Old Ma. After all, a boy's best friend is his mother...

Bests,

Mark D.

[Lewis C]

Jack is an obvious Combo Killer but I look for consistent behaviour in assessments, not dabbling behaviour like cannibalism or what can be interpreted as symbolic lust mutilations in two or three of the five. I go with consistent prostitute killing and spectacle killing or inciting of terror which is similar to mass murder which goes up in age range to 73.

https://www.theviolenceproject.org/key-findings/

I also look at major deviations like age. The Boston Strangler had a major deviation which was presumably just younger copycats going after victims they knew.

So again, I’m looking at the age of any significant other. Do you give him one and do you have an age bracket?

I'd say that his most likely age is about 30, though I can imagine him being as young as 22 or as old as 45.

[Lombro2]

re. substitution-killings: do you have a favoured text/study/database I can look at? With Lechmere, I have so far mostly concentrated on the Old Ma. After all, a boy's best friend is his mother...

Bests,

Mark D.

I don’t believe in research studies for violent crime. I do believe in statistical data but I don’t think academia would be interested in substitution killing because they’d think it’s blaming women.

But, as I believe you’re pointing out, serial killers are extremely motivated by women.

[Fiver]

But, as I believe you’re pointing out, serial killers are extremely motivated by women.

That's an oversimplification. The Ripper certainly appears to have been, but even then was his motive anger, sexual, or something else. But there are also serial killers with financial motives - the Benders, Belle Guiness, John Haigh, or several infamous baby farmers. There are also doctors and nurses who kill patients, regardless of the gender of the victim.

[Lombro2]

If you want to discuss serial killers with financial motives, we can do that. I see Greed as similar to Lust as a motivation. Envy, of course, is my favourite. Anger though has to be the most probable with Moralization involved, which would suggest again Substitution. It’s more probable than Lust. You can’t give everything equal billing or not have a primary principle.

Financial motives used to rule people out as legitimate serial killers. Obviously financial motives or otherwise can exclude a female as a primary motivator. It doesn't in fact rule out primary principles. That's why I would not rule out Monetary Greed Killers any more than I would rule out a Lust Killer as being a Serial Killer.

Motivation helps in investigation but is the hardest to determine, hence I'm going here with Age and Victimology which is known.

[Lombro2]

I'd say that his most likely age is about 30, though I can imagine him being as young as 22 or as old as 45.

I like your age range better than the usual one. But I wouldn't say 30 is most likely. Do you think he ended up killing four women in a row in their mid 40s, 5+ years above the unofficial "average", completely by accident or did he at least know what was out there between 1 and 5:30? If he knew what was out there, then wasn't there a "natural" choice for 45 because that's around his age, and not just the practical benefits of late night/early morning stalking?

Average Age of Whitechapel Prostitutes? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

I hope the 45 cut-off isn't due to any belief of rookies over 45 not existing. That's if you believe he's an 1888 rookie.


Donato Bilancia 46 (Liguria Monster) Italy
Russell William 46 (Killer Colonel) Canada born England
David Carpenter 49 (The Trailside Killer) US
Bruce McArthur 52 Canada
John Wayne Glover 57 (The Granny Killer) Australia born England

[Lewis C]

I like your age range better than the usual one. But I wouldn't say 30 is most likely. Do you think he ended up killing four women in a row in their mid 40s, 5+ years above the unofficial "average", completely by accident or did he at least know what was out there between 1 and 5:30? If he knew what was out there, then wasn't there a "natural" choice for 45 because that's around his age, and not just the practical benefits of late night/early morning stalking?

Average Age of Whitechapel Prostitutes? - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

I hope the 45 cut-off isn't due to any belief of rookies over 45 not existing. That's if you believe he's an 1888 rookie.


Donato Bilancia 46 (Liguria Monster) Italy
Russell William 46 (Killer Colonel) Canada born England
David Carpenter 49 (The Trailside Killer) US
Bruce McArthur 52 Canada
John Wayne Glover 57 (The Granny Killer) Australia born England

He may or may not have known that older women would have been most of what was out there, or he may have learned that over the course of the period. I think most likely he cared more about what time he murdered than the age of his victims. Maybe older women were more desperate, and therefore more willing to go somewhere with him.

My 45 cut-off is partly based on descriptions, and also because while over 45 rookies exist, I think they're very much in the minority. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility. In fact, I think Oswald Puckridge, though a long shot, is a viable suspect, and I think that he was 50 at the time of the murders.

[Lombro2]

I also go partly by the witnesses because there are so many but I add ten years because people can look ten years younger in the dark, and that’s without counting an already youthful appearance. So I got 40-50 with Long saying “over 40”.

I draw the line at 50 with the only examples over 50 I have so far being a killer of very old “Grannies” and a gay killer who resorted to drugs to subdue his victims.

[Lombro2]

That's an oversimplification. The Ripper certainly appears to have been, but even then was his motive anger, sexual, or something else.

Isn’t anger the most likely motive? I’d say it’s more likely than sexual, especially if we’re talking arousal by innards.

That means he’s angry at someone which would be a Substitution or a person the victim or victims substituted for. So who’s more likely to have angered him—a 45 year old or a 25 year old?

[Michael W Richards]

A serial killer killing older women is interesting criminal behaviour in itself and I think it’s unique. Off-hand, I can think of three examples of serial killers who killed older women—the Boston Strangler, the Lipstick Killer and the Gorilla Man. I thought it was rare and so far I think I’m right. In fact, one or two of those are now considered to possibly be myths.

Real or not, these killers coincidentally also had a change in the victim age group as did Jack the Ripper. For example, Earle Nelson went from victims over 60 to 20 year olds. The Ripper, we know, went from 40s to “25”.

So what can this coincidence tell us, if anything? Why older victims and why the switch?

The range in age of the victims presumed to be killed by Jack the Ripper is wholly dependent on which victims you choose to attribute to him. These murders are ALL Unsolved, as are the remaining 7 or 8 victims in the Unsolved Files for that same period. If you wanted to add Johnny Gill, the child butchered in Bradford in Dec 88, then Jacks profile would be that he kills boys and women between the ages of 8 and 46.

My point is that until at least 1 of these Jack attributed murders is eventually solved....a difficult possibility to accept personally, then we have no idea of the actual Victimology. Its all just presumed.

[Lombro2]

What’s the difference from a linkage standpoint between the “Ripper” murders and those of other know prostitute killers, like say Peter Dale McDonald?

His victims were 23 and 33 when he was 36 and the last one was 35 when he was 39.

[The Rookie Detective]

A serial killer killing older women is interesting criminal behaviour in itself and I think it’s unique. Off-hand, I can think of three examples of serial killers who killed older women—the Boston Strangler, the Lipstick Killer and the Gorilla Man. I thought it was rare and so far I think I’m right. In fact, one or two of those are now considered to possibly be myths.

Real or not, these killers coincidentally also had a change in the victim age group as did Jack the Ripper. For example, Earle Nelson went from victims over 60 to 20 year olds. The Ripper, we know, went from 40s to “25”.

So what can this coincidence tell us, if anything? Why older victims and why the switch?

When we add into the mix that the Ripper targeted the Uterus and Womb, it could be said that the reason for his switch related to females fertility.

His mid-40's victims were coming towards their end of shelf life in terms of ability to conceive and this may have been why he began with older women.

Switching to MJK is interesting and perhaps the reason why she suffered the most injuries may have been down to her fertility age just as much as being indoors.


But I also believe the Ripper may have been the torso killer.

It's interesting that all of the torso victims were of a similar estimated age as MJK.

In that case he may have STARTED with younger fertile women and then spent a few months in the autumn of 88 trying out the feeling of cutting up the reproductive organs of women nearing the end of their ability to hold a child...before going BACK to what he knew and loved with MJK and the younger fertile age group.

Let's not forget that at least 3 of the Canonical 5 nearly had their heads severed.

That shows some intent to dismember


I think one of the biggest arguments for supporting the idea that he was driven by the fertility/infertility of his victims is precisely because he switched age brackets.

That distinct change has to mean something.


If it doesn't, then why attack the reproductive organs?


RD

[Michael W Richards]

I think that a grouping of some murders that are most likely to have been done by the same lone man, using Polly as a starting point, shows us that there is some specificity in his events. Some repetitive characteristics are evident in some of the Canonical murders, and some do not have that same focus or a clear primary objective. It was surmised at the Inquest into Annie Chapmans death that her killer acted in a manner that showed some knowledge of anatomy, some skills using a sharp knife, and the ability to use both in a short period of time. In the near dark conditions available. It also suggested that the goal of the killer was evident by the way he went about his mutilations, and that goal, in that murder, was Annies uterus.The records show that Annies murder started the investigators looking at medical students and teaching hospitals, which is proof of their considering that, at least in part, it was a man with some medical training.

All the Canonical murders do not reveal the same repetitive characteristics or skill sets. Some do. At least for me, that suggests that its very likely some Canonical murders were not done by Jack the Ripper, who I credit with those repetitive characteristic actions. The hardest thing to overcome when discussing these crimes is the idea that serial killers continually revise or refine how they go about their crimes. What weapons they use, what kinds of targets they seek,..the locations, the time of day, and so on. This is presumed to be an attempt to provide inconsistencies in the crimes that might prevent them from being seen as committed by the same person. Its usually done to deceive investigators. I would think that presumes that the mere killing of someone is a major part of what compels them.

In my estimation Jack the Ripper murders showed that killing wasnt a primary goal, it was only a step in a process. It revealed that the killer relied on skills he already possessed to achieve his objective, and his ultimate objective was to extract and take female, abdominal organs.

That could be said in Annies case, and with some discrepancies with Kates murder. By virtue of the actions and characteristics of Pollys murder, it could be assumed that she was the start of it all, and his methodolgy and confidence were unrefined.

Thats 3 women with similar profiles and murder cases,....their ages, similar physical states of being at the time they meet their killer...one drunk, one sick, 1 likely with a hangover. Similar times of night. Left to be found by the next person walking by. 2 stated to friends that they were out soliciting on the nights they are killed, and 1 who is meeting someone for reasons that are not clear by the physical sighting of her by a witness, just before she is killed. So, as with the 2 who were soliciting, she is presumed to be in the company of an unknown man just before she is killed.

There is no unknown man in the Stride case, nor in Marys. Stride is last seen with a man at 12:35 on the street, and Mary is in her room, having arrived home at 11:45 Thursday night with a man. Since Mary is killed much later that night, and Liz is killed at the very least 10 minutes after being seen by PC Smith, we cant presume that either of these victims are with their killers when seen. And neither womens murder shows evidence they were actively soliciting at the time. And one woman is very young.... and indoors. Left in a locked room later on.

You can except that some unusual characteristics would be present in almost every act they commit, but I believe that there is evidence that in at least a small grouping of murders, they do have very similar characteristics.