Torsoman vs The Ripper

[jerryd]

Hi R.J.

Elizabeth Jackson, who was identified, turned out to be a homeless prostitute. I'm not saying the rest of the torsos were. We don't know, as you say. The victimology in the torso cases seemed to be younger women than most of the Ripper victims. I have always felt the Whitehall victim was more of the "theatre attending" type woman, with the dress improver and all. But, she could have been a "West End" higher class prostitute, too. Who knows?

I think the best comparison between the two series lies in Mary Kelly who was dissected in a very similar way to Elizabeth Jackson. And she was of the younger class out of all the Ripper victims. More in line with the age of the torso victims. Both had their abdominal skin removed in several flaps and the lower flap included regenerative parts and part of the right buttock in both cases. Jackson's head was removed about the sixth vertabrae and Mary Kelly had deep notches in the 5th and 6th vertebrae. Mary was a "disarticulation" away from removing both legs from her body. In the Jackson case, she had an incision from sternum to pubes and all the contents removed. Which poses a question, if E. Jackson's death and dismemberment was only to dispose of the body, why all the extra unnecessary cutting up?

[Abby Normal]

Hi R.J.

Elizabeth Jackson, who was identified, turned out to be a homeless prostitute. I'm not saying the rest of the torsos were. We don't know, as you say. The victimology in the torso cases seemed to be younger women than most of the Ripper victims. I have always felt the Whitehall victim was more of the "theatre attending" type woman, with the dress improver and all. But, she could have been a "West End" higher class prostitute, too. Who knows?

I think the best comparison between the two series lies in Mary Kelly who was dissected in a very similar way to Elizabeth Jackson. And she was of the younger class out of all the Ripper victims. More in line with the age of the torso victims. Both had their abdominal skin removed in several flaps and the lower flap included regenerative parts and part of the right buttock in both cases. Jackson's head was removed about the sixth vertabrae and Mary Kelly had deep notches in the 5th and 6th vertebrae. Mary was a "disarticulation" away from removing both legs from her body. In the Jackson case, she had an incision from sternum to pubes and all the contents removed. Which poses a question, if E. Jackson's death and dismemberment was only to dispose of the body, why all the extra unnecessary cutting up?

thanks RJ
and well said. i was going to respond, but of course you are much more knowledgeable than me in these matters and did it better.

[rjpalmer]

Hi R.J.

Elizabeth Jackson, who was identified, turned out to be a homeless prostitute.

Yes she was, Jerry, but might that not be a red-herring?

I still can't shake my gut feeling that being 8 months pregnant was far more relevant to her sad ending than her current occupation, even if we are to believe that she was still walking the streets that far along towards childbirth. I think it was Ed Stow who suggested pregnant women might be desirable objects for a certain twisted punter with a peculiar fetish, but he never explained how a 'prostitute' could stay 8 months pregnant indefinitely in order to fill that specialty niche!

Being murdered because you were pregnant is one of the great homicidal themes of the 19th Century.

To my way od thinking, the fact that Jackson was a prostitute and thus spent time in a workhouse and was known around Chelsea and Battersea Park, etc. is what allowed her to be identified in the first place, so it could be a type of confirmation bias.

We're all theorizing, but maybe the three 'unknowns' were an entirely different kettle of fish and that's why they were never traced--domestic servants from the continent, for instance, with no local family.

[Abby Normal]

HI Wulf

Also if you are saying the medical men belived they were by the same person, they also thought that person wasn't the ripper - from the essay by Debra:

the two murders were also linked by the press to the previous Rainham and Whitehall mysteries. Inspector Tunbridge, who had been in charge of the Jackson murder investigation, was brought in to view the Pinchin Street torso, along with detectives who had been involved in the other similar cases. It was reported that the general opinion of these detectives was that the mode of dismemberment in all these cases was strikingly similar and there was also an opinion expressed that these murders were of a 'different origin' to the Whitechapel atrocities.

Yes agree. very few people thought the torso and ripper cases were related at the time. But I beleive that JerryD and Fish did find some who did, but it might have only been by someone in the press, I cant remember.

[Abby Normal]

thanks RJ
and well said. i was going to respond, but of course you are much more knowledgeable than me in these matters and did it better.

sorry obviously meant to say Jerry!

[Fiver]

I still can't shake my gut feeling that being 8 months pregnant was far more relevant to her sad ending than her current occupation, even if we are to believe that she was still walking the streets that far along towards childbirth.

My theory, based on that, which is admittedly slim on evidence, is that Torsoman was an abortionist. The victims were botched operations, not deliberate murders. The mutilations were to hide identities and make transportation of the bodies easier.

[jerryd]

sorry obviously meant to say Jerry!

Thanks Abby!

The conundrum for me, is the timings Dr. Hibbert and Bond give for the Whitehall victims death. Personally, I feel from all that we know, the Whitehall victim met her death on or about September 8th or 9th. But, that would contradict their findings to a degree. Dr. Neville, who examined the first body part at Pimlico (arm), was a qualified Police Divisional Surgeon just like Bond. He felt the arm had come from a body that would have been deceased about September 8th. On about September 16th, Dr. Hibbert examined the arm and came to a different conclusion from Dr. Neville.

I don't know if I'm making a big deal out of this or not, but, I think it's beyond coincidence that both Annie Chapman and the Pinchin torso were both murdered/determined to have died on that date. The Pinchin torso victim a year later, of course.

[Abby Normal]

My theory, based on that, which is admittedly slim on evidence, is that Torsoman was an abortionist. The victims were botched operations, not deliberate murders. The mutilations were to hide identities and make transportation of the bodies easier.

none of the other torso victims were pregnant.

[Dickere]

Hi Sam,

Good to see you back!

I agree that the ripper would not have had the 'luxury' of murdering and mutilating where he lived, if he didn't live alone. Equally, he may or may not have had a place of his own if he simply preferred to leave his victims where he found them, to be quickly discovered. I can't see why a serial killer would have wanted the chore of transporting a body or body parts, if he could have avoided it by continuing to select victims at random out on the open streets, where no connection could be made with his home or place of work.

I certainly struggle with the idea that, if the ripper was living with his family [Lechmere, for example], he would have given himself the additional headache of including any woman among his victims who had to be dismembered and then dumped at a distance, either because he had foolishly killed her too close to 'home', or because of some personal connection between the two.

Love,

Caz
X

Bonus point for Lechmere. Clearly he was the Ripper on his walk to work and Torsoguy when he had the horse and cart during the day. He thought he'd got away with it too

[rjpalmer]

none of the other torso victims were pregnant.

The Whitehall victim may have been. The uterus and pelvis were missing.

[jerryd]

The Whitehall victim may have been. The uterus and pelvis were missing.

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion? And to add to that, would the abortionist take her clothing off at his "medical room" (for lack of words), dispose of her body parts in the soon to be Police Offices and gather up and bring her clothing to the site and scatter them about the place where he dumped her?

[rjpalmer]

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion?

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

[Abby Normal]

I guess anything is possible R.J, but would a woman get dressed up in a nice outfit complete with dress improver to go to have an abortion? And to add to that, would the abortionist take her clothing off at his "medical room" (for lack of words), dispose of her body parts in the soon to be Police Offices and gather up and bring her clothing to the site and scatter them about the place where he dumped her?

exactly Jerry
and would the "DR" after the botched abortion have the know how and or take the risk/trouble to haul her torso/parts/clothes into the almost inaccessable far reaches of an underground vault of the newly being built police building?!? I think not.

[jerryd]

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

Searching the newspapers under "missing persons" is how I found this one. Unfortunately, there wasn't any follow up to this that I could find.

Lloyd's Weekly, August 21st, 1887 (referring to Rainham torso)

[rjpalmer]

exactly Jerry
and would the "DR" after the botched abortion have the know how and or take the risk/trouble to haul her torso/parts/clothes into the almost inaccessable far reaches of an underground vault of the newly being built police building?!? I think not.

The penalty for killing a woman during an 'illegal operation' was severe in the 19the Century, up to an including the death penalty. So he pays someone handsomely to help get rid of the body.

It's not far-fetched. There are many cases in the 19th Century of abortion victims ending up in the river or in trunk at a distant railway station. So why not at a building site?

And the fact that the victim could have been pregnant (the uterus and pelvis missing) doesn't mean it was a botched abortion case. Someone could have murdered their pregnant mistress. Removing the 'evidence' would complicate a police inquiry.