Ripper and enclosed spaces

[Abby Normal]

That's my view too. She impressed the coroner so her evidence should make a greater impression on the historical record.

agree. she more than likely saw the ripper.

[Bridewell]

Elizabeth Long.

That's my view too. She impressed the coroner so her evidence should make a greater impression on the historical record.

[caz]

Catching up with some older threads...

The above post by Robert St Devil reflects my own thinking, that the killer was limited to where his prospective victims were prepared to take him, or to go with him, in which case the locations can probably say very little about his preferences. He took what was available to him, in terms of location and victim, so it was a balancing act each time between his violent urges and the risks involved in giving way to them.

As long as the victim wasn't putting up a noisy fuss [which may of course have been true in Stride's case], her killer only had to act like any average punter, who did the business in a quiet place of the woman's choice while nobody was looking. Business completed, he could go on his way, leaving nobody any the wiser. If he'd been unlucky enough to be seen in the act [which the average punter would not have been], he was at least armed with a lethal weapon if push had come to shove.

The fact that he was never caught suggests that he considered the risks both manageable and worth taking.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert St Devil]

Perhaps the intention with Nichols was, if possible, to get her behind the gates she was killed in front of.
Same could apply with Eddowes too I guess.

Which makes me think, what if the back door of 29 Hanbury turned out to be locked, would we have an abandoned attempt or a murder on Hanbury street itself.

by now, this narrative is a convoluted mess in my head. However, i do believe that i recall snippets that allude to your position. I want to remember that the gates of the stable yard aside Polly Nicholl’s murder had been recently kept shut (because they had been recently painted white??). So, it is completely within reason that she was leading Jack the Ripper to this location under the presumption that he was an intended “client” and that this stableyard was found to be unusually closed.

Going further, it could be that his lustmordian rage was so overwhelming that he acted upon it regardless of the location being less than ideal.

I could draw similarities between the Nicholl’s scene of the crime with the Stride scene of the crime, where the lighting was so poor that it may have been visually impossible for him to fulfill the acts which became the Ripperesque trademark of his crimes, that being evisceration and organ harvesting.

With Nicholl’s, he may have waited a week to satiate that lustmord whereas, with Stride, the desire may have been so consuming that his “patience & pacification” could only wait an hour.

[DJA]

Elizabeth Long.

[Fleetwood Mac]

A few of the witness descriptions mention a man who was below-average height. I imagine a killer who was short and stocky, as he was able to overpower women of similar height quite adeptly.

There's a psychological phenomenon where short men behave more aggressively than others, due to feelings of inadequacy. I'm not sure how inadequate the killer's height was by Victorian standards but he may have been a right pugnacious so-and-so. The man spotted by Israel Schwarz certainty fits the picture.

Something to ponder.

I think at least one of the witnesses will have seen the right man.

I suppose it depends on which witness you go with.

For me, the best bets are: Lawende, PC Smith, Mary Ann Cox.

[etenguy]

Aye, it's all speculative but when you look at Mary's murder in particular, the series of witness statements are inexplicable, e.g. Julia Venturney. I can understand an argument suggesting that there is something going on beyond a lone, crazed murderer on the loose

On Mary's witnesses, there is also the strange conflict between Maria Harvey's evidence and the account from Lizzie Albrook - probably worthy of a dedicated thread - so I'll not expand here.

[Fleetwood Mac]

That's funny, I've just been re-reading The Bank Holiday Murders.

I'd forgotten what an interesting take Tom Wescott has on the case.

It's certainly got me thinking more about Emma Smith (who I'd pretty much discounted as a ripper victim) and Martha Tabram (who I see as quite possible).

His research around the boarding houses and their owners (and the intricate connections linking them all) is fascinating.

Aye, it's all speculative but when you look at Mary's murder in particular, the series of witness statements are inexplicable, e.g. Julia Venturney. I can understand an argument suggesting that there is something going on beyond a lone, crazed murderer on the loose.

And then there is the pardon issued after Mary's murder (an accomplice). I think it has generally been assumed that the murderer must have had blood all over him and therefore someone may have known of his guilt (due to returning home). I don't necessarily go along with that. Given that Mary was undressed, I think it's a fair bet the murderer was undressed also.

On possible other murders at the same hand/s, I've always felt it is likely that there were more than 5 victims.

[Ms Diddles]

Sounds like a recommendation - I could do with some new reading material. Re Tabram - I personally am inclined to believe she is more likely than not a ripper victim, and if so then I think Annie Milward is also a potential victim, but I have never been convinced that is true for Emma Smith. It will be good to read something that might challenge that belief.

Yeah, I'd definitely give it a go Eten.

Let us know your thoughts when you've read it.

[etenguy]

That's funny, I've just been re-reading The Bank Holiday Murders.

I'd forgotten what an interesting take Tom Wescott has on the case.

It's certainly got me thinking more about Emma Smith (who I'd pretty much discounted as a ripper victim) and Martha Tabram (who I see as quite possible).

His research around the boarding houses and their owners (and the intricate connections linking them all) is fascinating.

Sounds like a recommendation - I could do with some new reading material. Re Tabram - I personally am inclined to believe she is more likely than not a ripper victim, and if so then I think Annie Milward is also a potential victim, but I have never been convinced that is true for Emma Smith. It will be good to read something that might challenge that belief.

[Ms Diddles]

There does appear to be progression in terms of the level of privacy at each murder site, and so there is a degree of thought going into this and you'd assume he wasn't getting the privacy he wanted at the crime scenes prior to Mary. I don't think he had a great deal of options outside of trying to find somewhere a bit more private to achieve his ambitions, however, e.g. a square instead of a yard backing onto a club, in other words it was the obvious thing to do. This doesn't suggest this is some great planner, he's merely managed to pick a woman up and negotiate his way into a dark corner.

I've always felt this is no criminal mastermind, he was opportunistic and he simply walked away from the crime scenes. By the time the police had a co-ordinated search underway, he'd have been long gone.

In terms of how this impacts the type of person who committed these crimes, I'm not sure it makes any difference whatsoever due to him undertaking the obvious, i.e. trying to negotiate his way into privacy; but I do think Tom Wescott is on the right track with the root of his research in that there may well be a connection to the lodging houses in the immediate area, e.g. Dorset Street.

That's funny, I've just been re-reading The Bank Holiday Murders.

I'd forgotten what an interesting take Tom Wescott has on the case.

It's certainly got me thinking more about Emma Smith (who I'd pretty much discounted as a ripper victim) and Martha Tabram (who I see as quite possible).

His research around the boarding houses and their owners (and the intricate connections linking them all) is fascinating.

[Ms Diddles]

A few of the witness descriptions mention a man who was below-average height. I imagine a killer who was short and stocky, as he was able to overpower women of similar height quite adeptly.

There's a psychological phenomenon where short men behave more aggressively than others, due to feelings of inadequacy. I'm not sure how inadequate the killer's height was by Victorian standards but he may have been a right pugnacious so-and-so. The man spotted by Israel Schwarz certainty fits the picture.

Something to ponder.

Yeah, I think your "wee man syndrome" could perhaps apply to Bury too.

[Harry D]

Maybe someone who fancied his chances in a fight rather than flight situation??

A few of the witness descriptions mention a man who was below-average height. I imagine a killer who was short and stocky, as he was able to overpower women of similar height quite adeptly.

There's a psychological phenomenon where short men behave more aggressively than others, due to feelings of inadequacy. I'm not sure how inadequate the killer's height was by Victorian standards but he may have been a right pugnacious so-and-so. The man spotted by Israel Schwarz certainty fits the picture.

Something to ponder.

[Ms Diddles]

That was my first thought when I read the opening post.

Perhaps these areas were a little more discreet, but if anyone had caught him in the act, he was trapped.

Maybe someone who fancied his chances in a fight rather than flight situation??

[Ms Diddles]

Thank you, Ms Diddles - its nice to come back to a warm welcome.

I think opportunistic but maintaining freedom would get a lot of votes. Probably a wider range of views about why the murder sites were chosen and what that tells us, if anything. And it probably tells us nothing specially useful, beyond the usual geographical data.

But I am struck by the similarities of non random elements of the crimes (for example weekend killings, early or late in the month killings (not mid month), choice of murder sites etc..). Solely circumstance and opportunity or some planning involved? Seemingly not someone reacting to a random trigger and not someone carving out time to commit these murders - so I think some suspects are less likely if we accept this level of mental control.

I'm inclined to agree, Eten!

I think a degree of mental control is evident.

If the killer was simply batsh!t crazy, I can't help but feel he'd have likely been caught in the act or soon afterwards.

I suppose some would argue that this rules out Koz, but as is frequently (and correctly to my mind) pointed out on here, we actually have no idea of how Koz was presenting in Autumn 1888.