Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Amanda]

Well....

Hi Abby , what type of delivery men would be out delivering in the early morning hours?

Hi Rocky,

Dodgy ones, obviously

Amanda

[Rosella]

Night soil men. They had carts and were only allowed to work between midnight and five a.m..

[RockySullivan]

Night soil men. They had carts and were only allowed to work between midnight and five a.m..

Now that's a real sharp idea rosella. Would night soul men be collecting at some of the ripper sites like the bathrooms at Mary Kelly's and the yard where Kate eddowes was killed?

[Amanda]

Hee, hee..

Now that's a real sharp idea rosella. Would night soul men be collecting at some of the ripper sites like the bathrooms at Mary Kelly's and the yard where Kate eddowes was killed?

Love the mis-spelling Rocky,

Were they out collecting souls.....?

[RockySullivan]

Love the mis-spelling Rocky,

Were they out collecting souls.....?

Lost souls indeed

[Michael W Richards]

G'day Michael

You're not suggesting that MJK was some sort of stepping stone are you?

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

If Mary was an intended torso...how would he plan to package up the body parts and remove them all at once? I do however think the Kelly crime scene does point to torso being jack as it shows he was working inside and went far beyond the mutilations of the other ripper victims.

[GUT]

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

Thanks I was worried how that was going to work. But I do see stranger suggestions from time to time.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks I was worried how that was going to work. But I do see stranger suggestions from time to time.

And often emanating from the same source. I'd put Mike's latest ruminations - that Mary Kelly was an abandoned torso victim - along the same probability lines as his Stride theorizing. No better no worse.

Yours truly

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Despite my critic-in-the-hedge, my suggestion about the Torso killer, as my statements concerning the Stride murder, are based on what is before us in actual hard physical evidence, not on some questionable theories. I merely pointed out that if you wanted to find acts at all similar to those committed in Room 13 you might want to consider the fact that she appears to have been taken apart,.... her right arm is held on by tendons I believe, her head is almost off, her right leg could be removed with little trouble at all. Both inner thighs were sliced off, revealing the structures beneath that a Torso maker would need to navigate to remove the appendages.

As I said, not my particular theory to support, but within the known physical evidence, Marys murder is closer to a murder/dismemberment scene than any of the other Canonicals. And since we must assume the Torso maker worked indoors, there is also that aspect to consider. This Jack fellow worked outdoors, whether because he preferred it or that's where his prey was, who can say.

The question of assumed anatomical knowledge by actions taken can only be dealt with on a case to case basis within the Can5, because there appears to be variances in the skill and knowledge assumed after Annie Chapman....who in my opinion must be considered the truly quintessential Jack the Ripper victim.

Cheers

[gnote]

The medical/anatomical knowledge question was not agreed upon by doctors and investigators at the time. Even today it's a point of contention, although it seems more are in the camp of believing Jack had none at all. (and in 1888)

While I don't think he had anything like surgical training it does appear he was reasonably skilled and at least very confident with a knife. I base this primarily on the speed of the attacks in general. One or two very quick slashes of the throat that prevented the victims from crying out. Subsequently the killer mutilates the body under very poor lighting conditions and in some cases removed organs. All this was done in the streets with people about and police walking the beat on high alert. I'm not sure "boldness" alone is an adequate explanation.

Other killers have done worse in terms of tearing up bodies such as Richard Cottingham. A key difference is that he was able to operate without interruption. (similar to the Miller's court horror)

Are there any parallels in other serial murders that Jack's combined his MO and "skill"? There was another poster (I think Errata) who mentioned it could be somebody who had experience in something like gutting fish.

[RockySullivan]

A fisher gutter is an interesting theory. Errata is always sharp as a razor. A fish gutter might frequently be around the embankment where liz Jackson was staying, and could also be around the thames to dump body parts?

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=gnote;318210] I'm not sure "boldness" alone is an adequate explanation.
QUOTE]

I agree with that statement. It isn't. And remind you that the senior medical personelle who examined Polly and Annie were not in disagreement about what they perceived as skill and knowledge...their findings caused the investigators to look specifically at medical grade knowledge throughout September...not butcher level, or a fish processors, but specifically doctor or med student skills. And they did question some curious med students as a result.

When assessing skill you cannot base your position on what all the Canonicals suffered, for clearly there is no consistent skill level shown beyond those first 2 murders. When Annie is killed by someone Phillips thought had those skills, Liz could have been killed by anyone with a knife.

It is illogical to assume that only this Jack fellow killed in this manner, using a knife to cut a throat.

Star, Sept 10th:

"The undiscovered murders of recent years make a long list. Passing over the murder of Mrs. Squires and her daughter in their shop at Hoxton in broad daylight; the killing of Jane Maria Clousen in Kidbrook-lane, near Eltham; the murder of the housekeeper to Bevingtons, of Cannon-street, we come to, perhaps, the best remembered and most sensational of the mysterious crimes of the past. On the morning of Christmas-day, 1872, Harriet Buswell was discovered with her throat cut. She was a ballet-girl, employed at the Alhambra, and had been accompanied to her home, 12, Great Coram-street, by a "gentleman," supposed to have been a German, who on the way purchased some apples, one of which was left in the room, and bore the impression of his teeth. This half-eaten apple was the sole clue to the murderer, who was never found. A German clergyman named Hessel was arrested at Ramsgate on suspicion three weeks after the murder, but a protracted magisterial investigation resulted in his complete acquittal.

-Mrs. Samuel was brutally done to death at her house in Burton-crescent, and a few doors further up Annie Yeats was murdered under precisely similar circumstances to those attending the death of Harriet Buswell.

-Miss Hacker was found dead in a coal-cellar in the house of one Sebastian Bashendorff, in Euston-square, and Hannah Dobbs was tried, but acquitted. An almost identical case happened in Harley-street. In this case the victim was unknown.

-Another unknown woman was discovered lying in Burdett-road, Bow, murdered.

-Mrs. Reville, a butcher's wife, of Slough, was found sitting in a chair with her throat cut, but no one was apprehended.

-Then there was the murder of an unfortunate in her home near Pye-street, Westminster. A rough fellow was known to have gone home with her, and he left an old and dirty neckerchief behind, but he was never found.

-Mrs. Samuel was killed with impunity in the Kentish Town Dairy.

-The murderer of Miss Clark, who was found at the foot of the stairs in her house, George-street, Marylebone, has gone unpunished.

Besides these there are the cases in which the victims have been men. A grocer's assistant was stabbed to death in the Walworth-road by a man who was stealing a pound of tea from a cart. The act was committed in the sight of a number of people, but the man got away, and to this day has not been captured. Mr. Tower, returning from midnight service on New Year's eve was found in the Stoke Newington reservoir. The police failing to get the faintest clue adopted the theory of suicide, but could get nothing to substantiate it. On 29 March 1884, E. J. Perkins, a clerk in a City office at 2, Arthur-street West, was murdered and from Saturday till Monday his body lay in a cellar in the basement of the building. Lieutenant Roper was shot at the top of the barrack stairs at Chatham, and, though Percy Lefroy Mapleton, who was hanged for the murder of Mr. Gould on the Brighton Railway, accused himself of the murder, it was proved that he could have had no connection with the lieutenant's death. Urban Napoleon Stanger, the baker, of Whitechapel, who vanished so mysteriously, we pass over. The list, though incomplete, is ghastly enough.

People argue erroneously that there were few knife attacks reported during thoise years, when it seems clear that there were unsolved knife attacks on both men and women in London in the LVP. Then add the number of "caught" criminals, who used a knife in the course of their crime.

Lots of people carrying knives...lots of people willing to use them....few assumed to have any knowledge of anatomy or appreciable skill with a knife.

And anyone in London could make their way to the East End quite easily.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Someone with medical knowledge is the first logical deduction...but when are doctors/surgeons ever accustomed to working with speed? DRs work slow, cautious with careful precision, in good lighting, at a slow pace. The ripper was clearly used to working incredibly fast, he's all about speed. Could a doctor really work that fast?

[gnote]

Someone with medical knowledge is the first logical deduction...but when are doctors/surgeons ever accustomed to working with speed? DRs work slow, cautious with careful precision, in good lighting, at a slow pace. The ripper was clearly used to working incredibly fast, he's all about speed. Could a doctor really work that fast?

Could they work faster? Probably, but they are aiming to do things properly and not taking the risk of making mistakes. That's why we have terms like "surgical precision". Clearly the Ripper wasn't operating with the same purpose in mind with his own knife work.