Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Errata, all

In a nutshell, what occupation(s) and/or experience is needed?

[Batman]

Hello batman. Thanks.

Your reply addresses intestines. I thought uteri were the point?

Is it possible that he were not stationary during the whole time?

Cheers.
LC

The point is what all the evidences suggests. The explanation has to encompase the lot.

If you look at Eddowes and imagine JtR kneeling by her right elbow you can see that he has placed another organ part with his right hand on his right side. Also by her left elbow is another organ part. This was likely placed with the left hand over her.

This position with Eddowes places JtRs back to the wall so he has full frontal view of Mitre Square.

The drapping of intestines is to get them out of the way.

[lynn cates]

moving

Hello batman. Thanks.

Your reply addresses intestines. I thought uteri were the point?

Is it possible that he were not stationary during the whole time?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Forgot marksmanship. He didn't have the right rifle for starters.

In otherwords.... you didn't match his score either.

[Harry D]

This is a bit like Lee Harvey Oswald deniers who say he couldn't have shot JFK yet none of them, not one achieved his marksmanship scores in military exams.

Forgot marksmanship. He didn't have the right rifle for starters.

[Batman]

Interesting observation batman, I recently was think mortuary attendants or someone who works in the morgue might help if any organs are removed? Would the coroner take organs out for autopsy? Possible someone who worked around dead bodies and as you say watched while operations were performed...on dead bodies...perhaps or living? Who is someone standing to the side that would observe surgical procedures that remove abdominal organs?

I think we are looking at surgical procedures more than autopsy.

Partial nephrectomy and whole nephrectomies can be done to a patient and they can live with 1 or 2 kidneys (with one missing a bit) after. The same goes for a hysterectomy. The patient will live. In both cases they are medical interventions to save lives/ease suffering. So in these instances we are looking at a medical student (maybe even post-grad) who is observing/shadowing those performing the operation. I think its less likely to be a nurse or an assistant who turns up now and again to clean up, take stuff away, bring stuff etc.

[RockySullivan]

A nephrectomy is done usually from the person's side. This is because the kidney's are located under the rear ribs. So the person is rarely ever lying on their back during this procedure. If you wanted to plan to smash and grab someone's kidney, you would probably find doing it while they are lying on their front is easier.

In JtR's murders his procedure are done on the front. So they kidney wasn't planned, IMO, but was done because he had enough time after performing the hysterectomy.

The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs.

What this suggests to me is the following...

JtR has anatomical experience, but not as the surgeon performing the procedure but as someone 'standing to the side' of the procedure, like a medical student or a nurse, aiding in the procedure. Therefore when JtR killed he subconsciously positioned himself as he would have done in the medical theatre, from the side, not the front.

Interesting observation batman, I recently was think mortuary attendants or someone who works in the morgue might help if any organs are removed? Would the coroner take organs out for autopsy? Possible someone who worked around dead bodies and as you say watched while operations were performed...on dead bodies...perhaps or living? Who is someone standing to the side that would observe surgical procedures that remove abdominal organs?

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs."

Why? He may have been at the side to cut the throat, but why the extraction at the side?

Cheers.
LC

The placement of intestines, in both Chapman and Eddowes case, suggest he was at their side and moving the organs from right to the left. In Chapman's case, if he was down at the bottom he would have to lift/throw the intestines over the whole of her body to place them beside her head. That would be extremely messy as he would be practically making contract with his body and hers doing that. The case for JtR being at the side is more compelling though with Eddowes because he placed one set of intestines over her shoulder and the other is severed completely and placed on her left side. Both intestines are parallel with her body. This means horizontal placement from the side, rather than vertical placement from below is more likely. Placing these vertically would be too awkward. Horizontally while at the side is easier. So it is more likely JtR did this while at their side.

which is easier?

BTW - "Easier" doesn't mean the correct medical position to be in.

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello Batman.

"The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs."

Why? He may have been at the side to cut the throat, but why the extraction at the side?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

The organ removal stumps me the most. Who could remove them that fast , it's almost like the ripper practiced on other bodies, like the torsos but a lot of them. He knew how to cut and get virtually no blood, can attack and kill quietly and have the victim dead instantly. It really sounds like an assassin I don't get it.

A nephrectomy is done usually from the person's side. This is because the kidney's are located under the rear ribs. So the person is rarely ever lying on their back during this procedure. If you wanted to plan to smash and grab someone's kidney, you would probably find doing it while they are lying on their front is easier.

In JtR's murders his procedure are done on the front. So they kidney wasn't planned, IMO, but was done because he had enough time after performing the hysterectomy.

The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs.

What this suggests to me is the following...

JtR has anatomical experience, but not as the surgeon performing the procedure but as someone 'standing to the side' of the procedure, like a medical student or a nurse, aiding in the procedure. Therefore when JtR killed he subconsciously positioned himself as he would have done in the medical theatre, from the side, not the front.

[RockySullivan]

The organ removal stumps me the most. Who could remove them that fast , it's almost like the ripper practiced on other bodies, like the torsos but a lot of them. He knew how to cut and get virtually no blood, can attack and kill quietly and have the victim dead instantly. It really sounds like an assassin I don't get it.

[Batman]

This is a bit like Lee Harvey Oswald deniers who say he couldn't have shot JFK yet none of them, not one achieved his marksmanship scores in military exams.

Its the same with JTR. Medical knowledge deniars aren't able to perform kidney extractions and especially heart removal at the top through below the ribcage.

Anatomy in the real world isn't a lovely different coloured model with parts to choose from. Its a mess of red, foods in digestion and substances ready for expulsion. In a brightly lit room this is difficult enough. At night in the dark is quite another matter.

I say the deniars have to demonstrate that anybody could have done it by repeating it. Most would give up once a surgeon showed them what they must achieve.

JtR also did it on a clock.

[RockySullivan]

The other similarity besides the position is the cut from rectum to breastplate. So no button sharpener on the belly button

[GUT]

So I was helping out a friend today, and she has something that would really save the wear and tear on a knife if used properly, and it is of no significance to anyone caught carrying one. She is a costumer, and she works with a ton of buttons. But getting them all in line is a pain, and cutting one off is an even bigger pain, so she showed me her sharpened button hook. It's like a wee little sickle. Certainly sharp enough to cut through skin, fat, and mesenteries, but not big enough to damage the intestines. Tiny, but effective.

If I was the type of person to have a murder kit, that would totally go in my murder kit.

I have a zombie apocalypse kit, but somehow a sharpened button hook doesn't really go with a Russian throwing shovel and the original 8 minute track of Michael Jackson's "Thriller".

My mum had one of those button dehooker thingy's and it was savage, with a capital S

[Errata]

Errata you have me thoroughly convinced you are serial killer! Lol that being said I like the two knives theory. If the throat cutting would dull the blade too much to do the abdominal mutilations, two would make sense. What if the woman were strangled/knocked out, then the ripper proceeded with the eviscerations, finally afterwards he cut the throat. Would the knife be sharp enough to cut the throats after the abdominal mutilations? Is this is possible alternative scenario to the two knives theory?

So I was helping out a friend today, and she has something that would really save the wear and tear on a knife if used properly, and it is of no significance to anyone caught carrying one. She is a costumer, and she works with a ton of buttons. But getting them all in line is a pain, and cutting one off is an even bigger pain, so she showed me her sharpened button hook. It's like a wee little sickle. Certainly sharp enough to cut through skin, fat, and mesenteries, but not big enough to damage the intestines. Tiny, but effective.

If I was the type of person to have a murder kit, that would totally go in my murder kit.

I have a zombie apocalypse kit, but somehow a sharpened button hook doesn't really go with a Russian throwing shovel and the original 8 minute track of Michael Jackson's "Thriller".