Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[curious4]

Can we be quite sure he was alone? Could he have had an accomplice with a bullseye lamp to give him some light and keep a lookout? There were two men near to Liz Stride. And the pardon was offered to someone who had knowledge of the murders but not actually involved. I know people had better night vision then, but Jack wasn't superhuman, even if that is part of the legend. I'm not sure, but I think a bullseye or dark lamp would only give light where it was directed, so that it might not necessarily have been visible from a distance.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

There are some questions about technique with the actual incisions. Which is a whole other thing. But I think that someone like me could have done this. I have anatomical knowledge, and yes my schooling was more thorough in biology than the average Victorian, but I had it anyway because my dad was a doctor, and my mom was a nurse.

In drawing the knife down the abdomen, would it have occurred to you to avoid the umbilicus?
It is a seemingly insignificant detail, yet the implication may appeal more to the professional than the interested layperson.

The kidney was also, if I recall, removed "with care", and at night, with the apprehension of being interrupted or discovered.
The ability or knowledge to locate and remove a kidney is one thing, but to remove it in a professional manner (with care) surely speaks more to a practiced hand?

[Errata]

The easiest explanation would be that the killer had knowledge, had skill, acquired both from the same place, and had enough practice under his belt that he was able to utilize both his skill and his knowledge in a swift and careful fashion.

And for all I know that's absolutely what happened.But there are other options.

There are some questions about technique with the actual incisions. Which is a whole other thing. But I think that someone like me could have done this. I have anatomical knowledge, and yes my schooling was more thorough in biology than the average Victorian, but I had it anyway because my dad was a doctor, and my mom was a nurse. I've never met a doctors kid who didn't pick up quite a bit from sharing a house with a medical professional. And I learned to cut from being an artist. And from a short stint as a cook.

Knowledge and skill from two different places. And maybe you might expect a short learning curve where he puts everything together, but he might be smart. Or he might have gone over it so many times in his head that when it came time to act he was comfortable with it.

It's not one thing. It's not knowledge/skill. A certain amount of knowledge is requirement A. Which is separate from requirement B, which is knife skill. It may well be that both requirements were filled by the same thing. Like medical school, or being a butcher. But it may be that the two requirements were filled separately. Or one led to the other. And a lot of people collect skills and knowledge over a long period of time. A book here, a conversation there. When skill and knowledge come together, that's expertise. Whether you got it from a school or you got it from putting a bunch of things together in your head, it doesn't matter. It's still expertise.

And maybe that's why the experts have a hard time pinning down whether or not this guy was a doctor, or a butcher, or professional of any kind. Because some of it is there. And some of it isn't. And they can't think why that is, because they aren't thinking that he may not be one thing. He may be five thing that come together to make this killer who is very like a skilled professional, but not actually one as they would define it.

Or the bastard is in fact a doctor. I don't know.

I just think that looking for a single source of this guys qualifications might be about as useful as looking for a single source of his motive. He might have had one bad experience and decided to mutilate prostitutes, but more that likely it was a ton of things going either slightly or catastrophically sideways that led to this.

[Trevor Marriott]

There was also a Dr. Ind on Casebook some fifteen years back who recognised genuine medical skills in the cuts & the words of the doctors who described the mutilations.
I don't recall any one of these professionals advocating that the killer was a practicing surgeon though.

It all gets back to knowledge, the ordinary man in the street would not know where to start and would be inhibited by the darkness and the blood filled abdomen and the time factor. So we can agree that whoever and wherever the organs were removed the remover had to have some anatomical knowledge.

The cut and slash theory doesn't even bear mentioning

www.trevormarriott

[Trevor Marriott]

Absolutely, if the serial offender motive was hatred of women, blaming them for his kidney and heart disease and JTR taking out was makes women different than men, the womb.

Quite the message.

Mike

I don't think there was a specific motive he was intent on murder and these women were easy prey for him at that time of the morning.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

There was also a Dr. Ind on Casebook some fifteen years back who recognised genuine medical skills in the cuts & the words of the doctors who described the mutilations.
I don't recall any one of these professionals advocating that the killer was a practicing surgeon though.

[mklhawley]

Perhaps they were not in the medical profession any more.

But, it wouldn't matter if he had a specific agenda as I stated above.

[Harry D]

Because they wanted to distance themselves and their profession from a maniacal killer.

Thanks for reading between the lines.

[Abby Normal]

It is quite astonishing to think that people still believe the killer took the organs from the victims at the crime scenes given all that we know about the light and the condition of the bodies and the time factor !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Astonishing!!

Good grief

[Abby Normal]

Does it make sense to suggest that a surgeon or someone within the medical profession would kill and remove organs when the same organs were readily available on a daily basis from mortuaries?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Perhaps they were not in the medical profession any more.

[Abby Normal]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

agree. And prosectors take on it just confirms it for me.

[Abby Normal]

If someone pushed me into a dark alleyway with a corpse, threw me a knife and told me I had five minutes to extract a major organ or they'd kill my family, squeamishness aside I'd probably make a right dog's dinner out of it. I can't see why some of the medical men thought the killer was a layman... unless there was an ulterior motive.

Because they wanted to distance themselves and their profession from a maniacal killer.

[mklhawley]

Does it make sense to suggest that a surgeon or someone within the medical profession would kill and remove organs when the same organs were readily available on a daily basis from mortuaries?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Absolutely, if the serial offender motive was hatred of women, blaming them for his kidney and heart disease and JTR taking out was makes women different than men, the womb.

Quite the message.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

It is quite astonishing to think that people still believe the killer took the organs from the victims at the crime scenes given all that we know about the light and the condition of the bodies and the time factor !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[packers stem]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really