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Did the murderer have anatomical knowledge beyond that of say a butcher?

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  • Alice Keppel - Wikipedia
    Last edited by DJA; 09-23-2022, 11:25 AM.
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • Originally posted by DJA View Post
      well i never

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      • Post #262 here:https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...e18#post796004 has some interesting information regarding anatomical knowledge and Dr Bond.

        To get back to the interesting OP you put forward, I found this post from Prosector, a practicing surgeon:

        As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.


        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

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        • Forensic pathologist Dr. William Eckert demonstrated how Nichols was killed,choke the victim first with the hand from behind,then cut the throat.Peter Ustinov's JTR show.
          Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
          M. Pacana

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          • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
            Forensic pathologist Dr. William Eckert demonstrated how Nichols was killed,choke the victim first with the hand from behind,then cut the throat.Peter Ustinov's JTR show.
            Hi Varm. Can any conclusions be made from Dr Ekert's demostration regarding:

            1. From where was the throat cut made? Front or back?

            2. Jtr using his left or right hand?

            Hope you don't mind the questions Just trying to understand this better.

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            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
              Post #262 here:https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...e18#post796004 has some interesting information regarding anatomical knowledge and Dr Bond.

              To get back to the interesting OP you put forward, I found this post from Prosector, a practicing surgeon:

              As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.


              Cheers, George
              Thanks for the quote and link.
              Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-24-2022, 05:02 PM.

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              • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                Hi Varm. Can any conclusions be made from Dr Ekert's demostration regarding:

                1. From where was the throat cut made? Front or back?

                2. Jtr using his left or right hand?

                Hope you don't mind the questions Just trying to understand this better.
                I think it's in YouTube.Both choke and cut from the back,cut left to right,if I remember right.
                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                M. Pacana

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

                  I think it's in YouTube.Both choke and cut from the back,cut left to right,if I remember right.
                  Thanks. I'll check it out. I have an idea about the handedness of my suspect which made me wonder about this.

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