Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Did the murderer have anatomical knowledge beyond that of say a butcher?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Alice Keppel - Wikipedia
    Last edited by DJA; 09-23-2022, 11:25 AM.
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DJA View Post
      well i never

      Comment


      • Post #262 here:https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...e18#post796004 has some interesting information regarding anatomical knowledge and Dr Bond.

        To get back to the interesting OP you put forward, I found this post from Prosector, a practicing surgeon:

        As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.


        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

        Comment


        • Forensic pathologist Dr. William Eckert demonstrated how Nichols was killed,choke the victim first with the hand from behind,then cut the throat.Peter Ustinov's JTR show.
          Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
          M. Pacana

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
            Forensic pathologist Dr. William Eckert demonstrated how Nichols was killed,choke the victim first with the hand from behind,then cut the throat.Peter Ustinov's JTR show.
            Hi Varm. Can any conclusions be made from Dr Ekert's demostration regarding:

            1. From where was the throat cut made? Front or back?

            2. Jtr using his left or right hand?

            Hope you don't mind the questions Just trying to understand this better.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
              Post #262 here:https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...e18#post796004 has some interesting information regarding anatomical knowledge and Dr Bond.

              To get back to the interesting OP you put forward, I found this post from Prosector, a practicing surgeon:

              As for the assertion that no 'knife skills' or special knowledge was used in the Eddowes dissection - I utterly refute that and would be happy to debate it sometime when I've got a few hours to spare. The big thing that everyone overlooks in this debate is that in 1888 abdominal surgery was virtually unknown. Sir Frederick Treves performed the first successful appendicectomy in Britain in its present sense in 1887 (and the appendix is very near the surface and therefore relatively easy to get at). Very few surgeons had ever ventured into the depths of the abdomen in 1888 except in a limited way during dissection as medical students (bodies were very difficult to come by - most students only got (and still only get) one body to dissect in their entire career, shared with several others. The bit of colon removed in the Eddowes dissection was the descending colon. This lies behind the posterior peritoneum and in front of the left kidney. It is relatively immobile compared with the rest of the intestines and JTR needed to get it out of the way in order to access the kidney. The fact that it was slightly crudely done is not surprising in the circumstances. I am certain that I could not have done any better, kneeling on the ground, in the dark with a 7 inch knife as my only instrument and no assistants to retract the abdominal flaps and contents. To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all. Also, don't forget that Bond and others who said that JTR did not display either surgical skill or anatomical knowledge, they were not practicing surgeons. Bond was only the surgeon to Out Patients at the Westminster Hospital and he did not have operating rights. In my view the only one who had the slightest idea of what was involved was Bagster Philips.


              Cheers, George
              Thanks for the quote and link.
              Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-24-2022, 05:02 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                Hi Varm. Can any conclusions be made from Dr Ekert's demostration regarding:

                1. From where was the throat cut made? Front or back?

                2. Jtr using his left or right hand?

                Hope you don't mind the questions Just trying to understand this better.
                I think it's in YouTube.Both choke and cut from the back,cut left to right,if I remember right.
                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                M. Pacana

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

                  I think it's in YouTube.Both choke and cut from the back,cut left to right,if I remember right.
                  Thanks. I'll check it out. I have an idea about the handedness of my suspect which made me wonder about this.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                    Thanks. I'll check it out. I have an idea about the handedness of my suspect which made me wonder about this.
                    How's the book going? Seems like forever waiting for your big reveal.
                    Thems the Vagaries.....

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
                      I'm curious as to the impact of Prosector's posts.

                      Reading these boards, prior to his/her posts, my memory tells me the overwhelming consensus was that the murderer didn't have a great deal of knowledge of human anatomy.

                      What was instructive to someone like me with less than a good knowledge of the murders, was Prosector's posts which made it clear that the two doctors who thought he did possess that knowledge were the two doctors with the most experience in these matters and it follows the two doctors whose opinions carried the most weight. From memory, Prosector detailed certain procedures involved in the murders that required more than the skills/knowledge of say a butcher.

                      'Just wondering: did these posts change a few minds? what is today's general consensus?

                      Thanks in advance.
                      Daily telegraph 1st Oct 1888

                      "It is now thought, if not, indeed, fully conceded, that the perpetrator of the crimes is not a scientific anatomist, as had been suggested by a portion of the testimony in the case of the woman Annie Chapman, the fourth victim in this series of outrages. The police view is that he is a man armed with a keen and fearful weapon, which he wields with a strong arm, and possessed by a maniacal fury against the lower class of street walkers. No anatomist would be likely to slash and cut with the rapidity and wildness which must have been employed in hacking and mutilating the poor creature found in the corner of Mitre-square. Medical opinion is almost unanimous, too, in regarding the murderer as an unskilled person and a mere fiendish butcher. Indeed, many of the shrewdest police officers, after seeing the bodies of the victims, assert that the murderer will yet be found to be a vulgar pig-sticker, if, in fact, he is not actually some slaughterhouse workman. Whatever may be the case, it is now generally held by both the police and the doctors that the murderer is possessed of very little anatomical skill, but uses his knife with mere savage ferocity. There is even a doubt expressed whether the disappearance of the uterus from the remains of Victim No. 4 was not due more to chance and accident, owing to the rough and gouging manner in which the knife was used.

                      Comment


                      • "Believe Nothing You Hear, and Only One Half That You See."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                          "Believe Nothing You Hear, and Only One Half That You See."
                          "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

                          Guess who said that?
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

                            Guess who said that?
                            I couldn't guess but had to google it. It was...

                            Comment


                            • Someone half the size of a human.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                                "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

                                Guess who said that?
                                Sure as hell wasn't poor old Tom Bombadil, no one ever quotes him.
                                Thems the Vagaries.....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X