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Did the murderer have anatomical knowledge beyond that of say a butcher?

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  • Fascinating catalogue erobitha !

    Thanks for posting.

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    • Originally posted by DJA View Post
      There is absolutely no evidence of a frenzied attack!
      Quite the opposite I would say. The cutting of the carotid artery and windpipe to kill and silence the victims instantly. Evidence that the body was brought to the ground to make these cuts to avoid getting blood onto attacker. I would say these attacks were ruthless and methodical rather than "frenzied".

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      • "https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-medical-men-inquest-doctor-reports/dr-bagster-phillips/31630-which-murders-did-dr-philips-consider-linked#post477187"

        See Chris Malone's post #9

        Quote
        Phillips based his anatomical skill assumption regarding Chapman, not only on the way the uterus was excised (which was flawed but logical to Phillips) but also on the way the abdominal incisions were made. That part was left out of all but one newspaper. It reminded him of an inverted "Y" incision common in the autopsy room at the time. As we know, Wynn Baxter took it and ran with it in his soon-to-be anatomical specimen thesis. It made sense; it was logical. They had no conception at that time of a psychopathic or psychotic serial killer.
        Unquote

        The inverted "Y" incision is really interesting. Also the lack of newspaper mentions on the way abdominal incisions were made, except one newspaper?

        Love to read this report...



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        • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
          "https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-medical-men-inquest-doctor-reports/dr-bagster-phillips/31630-which-murders-did-dr-philips-consider-linked#post477187"

          See Chris Malone's post #9

          Quote
          Phillips based his anatomical skill assumption regarding Chapman, not only on the way the uterus was excised (which was flawed but logical to Phillips) but also on the way the abdominal incisions were made. That part was left out of all but one newspaper. It reminded him of an inverted "Y" incision common in the autopsy room at the time. As we know, Wynn Baxter took it and ran with it in his soon-to-be anatomical specimen thesis. It made sense; it was logical. They had no conception at that time of a psychopathic or psychotic serial killer.
          Unquote

          The inverted "Y" incision is really interesting. Also the lack of newspaper mentions on the way abdominal incisions were made, except one newspaper?

          Love to read this report...


          Did Chapman's abdominal incisions really remind Dr. Philllps of an inverted "Y" incision?

          If Jack really used an inverted "Y" incision on Chapman then it raises the following points:

          1. It means Jack was familiar with an established dissection technique that was very likely acquired in a dissection room or at least the study of anatomical books and therefore supports the idea Jack did have rough anatomical knowledge as a minimum.

          2. It potentially works against supporting certain suspects; e.g. Kosminski.

          3. It raises questions regarding the validity of point 8 in Dr Bonds' report commissioned by Anderson on the 25th of October. Bond stated
          "In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific, nor anatomical knowledge."

          If Dr. Philllps could see something that reminded him of an inverted "Y" incision then why coudn't Dr Bond?

          Martyn

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          • Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

            Did Chapman's abdominal incisions really remind Dr. Philllps of an inverted "Y" incision?

            If Jack really used an inverted "Y" incision on Chapman then it raises the following points:

            1. It means Jack was familiar with an established dissection technique that was very likely acquired in a dissection room or at least the study of anatomical books and therefore supports the idea Jack did have rough anatomical knowledge as a minimum.

            2. It potentially works against supporting certain suspects; e.g. Kosminski.

            3. It raises questions regarding the validity of point 8 in Dr Bonds' report commissioned by Anderson on the 25th of October. Bond stated
            "In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific, nor anatomical knowledge."

            If Dr. Philllps could see something that reminded him of an inverted "Y" incision then why coudn't Dr Bond?

            Martyn
            Even if there was an inverted Y it does not mean the killer had anatomical knowledge. In the highly unlikely scenario that someone put a body down in front of me and said open the abdominal cavity and remove some organs I imagine I would start with a single long cut. Then if I was like jack and wanted organs from low down it makes sense to make at least one other cut off the first. Doing it to make an inverted Y would make sense. What I'm getting at is that we don't know what a chance occurrence looks like. He might have just done it that way as it seemed logical and there is no more to it. As you said, Bond, who may well have had access to other photos and notes that we don't, totally dismisses the idea of anatomical knowledge. Also, I think Dr P's first statement on medical knowledge was 'I think so' - which isn't all too convincing.

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            • Dr Bond was not very good at his job.Pretty much laughed at by USA researchers at the time.

              Reckon Dr Phillips knew who Jack the Ripper was.
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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              • Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                Even if there was an inverted Y it does not mean the killer had anatomical knowledge. In the highly unlikely scenario that someone put a body down in front of me and said open the abdominal cavity and remove some organs I imagine I would start with a single long cut. Then if I was like jack and wanted organs from low down it makes sense to make at least one other cut off the first. Doing it to make an inverted Y would make sense. What I'm getting at is that we don't know what a chance occurrence looks like. He might have just done it that way as it seemed logical and there is no more to it. As you said, Bond, who may well have had access to other photos and notes that we don't, totally dismisses the idea of anatomical knowledge. Also, I think Dr P's first statement on medical knowledge was 'I think so' - which isn't all too convincing.
                Thanks Aethelwulf. I agree it's possible that an inverted Y incision could have been made, say, by luck or by common sense.

                I have to look at again the pronouncements of Dr Phillips re the killer's supposed anatomical knowledge/skill.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                  Dr Bond was not very good at his job.Pretty much laughed at by USA researchers at the time.

                  Reckon Dr Phillips knew who Jack the Ripper was.
                  Hi DJA and thanks. Interest to read that Dr Bond's abilities was disparaged by the USA researchers. Can you share a bit more this this?

                  I agree that Dr Phillips knew the identity of JTR. Bruce Robinson agrees for sure as well!

                  Comment


                  • Past my bedtime.Suspect any info is on an old PC requiring repair.

                    IIRC after Mary Kelly's murder,a small team of American police turned up in London to find about about policing techniques,etc.

                    Not impressed with Bond.

                    Someone will know.Where's Wicky when I need him
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                      Past my bedtime.Suspect any info is on an old PC requiring repair.

                      IIRC after Mary Kelly's murder,a small team of American police turned up in London to find about about policing techniques,etc.

                      Not impressed with Bond.

                      Someone will know.Where's Wicky when I need him
                      Thanks DJA. Appreciate the info.

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                      • Still looking

                        Worth a read in the interim .....

                        Thomas Bond (British surgeon) - Wikipedia

                        NB
                        points 3 and 8.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Estimating Mary Kellys Time of Death

                          NB Bond's time for Rigor Mortis.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • Thank you. I'll save these off to my MJK foldesr and have a good read.

                            I was interested by your comment "Not impressed with Bond."

                            I have some thoughts on him which I will share later (when I get time!).

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                            • Dr Bond's sister in law was admitted to Bethlem in 1873.
                              Henry Sutton's son in law George Savage (physician) - Wikipedia

                              Bond and Sutton possibly crossed paths at the Lock Hospital.

                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                              • Just for jolly ...... Vita Sackville-West - Wikipedia

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                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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