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Did the murderer have anatomical knowledge beyond that of say a butcher?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    The killer clearly cut the throats from behind and while they were standing up.
    It's this kind of rubbish that makes the more competent theorists dismiss your ideas out of hand.
    Even the most novice of theorists have learned why this claim does not fit the evidence.

    I would imagine that he was able to manoevere them into such a positon or they manoevered them themsleves to attain a sexual position i.e, standing up and facing away from him, and then he would catch them off guard and cut their throats from behind.
    Not, 'cut their throats', but suffocate/strangle them from behind so they can't kick, punch or scratch him.

    In my opinon attacking then from the front could have resulted in them screaming out or fighting him off.
    At least you figured that much out.


    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      Again this has been covered previoulsy with Dr Biggs and how does he reply to my question

      "Q. Evidence from the crime scenes seems to show a distinct lack of arterial blood spray. Now given the throats were cut, and in some cases, the carotid arteries were severed is there any explanation for the absence of arterial spray?

      A. Blood loss could have been great if major neck vessels were severed. It is possible for much of the bleeding to remain within the body, though, so it would not necessarily result in a large volume of blood being visible externally. The lack of documented arterial blood pattern is not surprising as, despite being common in textbooks; arterial spurting is actually quite uncommon ‘in the wild’. Arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing very effective control of bleeding (at least initially). The large arteries in the neck are quite well ‘hidden’ behind muscles and other structures, so they can be missed by even very extensive cuts to the neck. Also, even if cut, the initial ‘spray’ is blocked by the surrounding structures such that blood either remains inside the body or simply gushes / flows / drips out of the external skin hole rather than spurting.

      can we move on form this now?

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk


      Half the doctors in the world are right, the other half are wrong.
      This is why patients are strongly advised to always seek a second opinion.

      Apparently, you ignored that advise.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by DJA View Post

        Nope.
        Having worked in an abattoir and done a lot of kangaroo shooting,I can assure you that is ..... a heap of steaming bullshit.
        Don't sugar-coat it Dave, just tell him straight!

        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          Yes, Trevor, all the various physical abnormalities can have different causes, IF, they appear by themselves, but NOT when they appear together following one incident. Perhaps he forgot to explain that bit.
          Or perhps you have got carried away with this strangling idea, medical sciences have moved on since 1888 and what was said then may now prove to be incorrcet

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Half the doctors in the world are right, the other half are wrong.
            This is why patients are strongly advised to always seek a second opinion.

            Apparently, you ignored that advise.
            Well you are quite welome to find you own forensic patholgist and ask the same questions that I asked Dr Biggs, these can be found in a chapter in my book featuring Dr Biggs and his review of not only the WM but the torsos as well, then I wouldnt have to keep posting extracts which you contiunally ignore

            https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...2497756&sr=1-3

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
            Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 08-07-2022, 03:18 PM.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              Or perhps you have got carried away with this strangling idea, medical sciences have moved on since 1888 and what was said then may now prove to be incorrcet

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              Why don't you ask your Dr Biggs for a list of separate causes for a:
              - Bloated face.
              - Swollen tongue.
              - Clasped fingers.
              - Black blood in the brain.

              Then ask him what single cause can produce all of them on the same body.
              You might learn something.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                Well you are quite welome to find you own forensic patholgist and ask the same questions that I asked Dr Biggs, these can be found in a chapter in my book featuring Dr Biggs and his review of not only the WM but the torsos as well, then I wouldnt have to keep posting extracts which you contiunally ignore

                https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...2497756&sr=1-3

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                I think what rattles a number of posters is, they all know you are mature & presumably experienced enough to know the real solutions to many of these issues we talk about. It's that you refuse to admit it, and prefer to peddle nonsense.
                Everyone respects you as a professional, what is annoying is you do not live up to expectations.
                I mean for my part, the thought that keeps running through my mind is (Dammit Trevor, your an ex-detective, so act like one!). But still, I could be wrong.
                Detectives might be like doctors, we should always go for a second opinion.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  I think what rattles a number of posters is, they all know you are mature & presumably experienced enough to know the real solutions to many of these issues we talk about. It's that you refuse to admit it, and prefer to peddle nonsense.
                  Everyone respects you as a professional, what is annoying is you do not live up to expectations.
                  I mean for my part, the thought that keeps running through my mind is (Dammit Trevor, your an ex-detective, so act like one!). But still, I could be wrong.
                  Detectives might be like doctors, we should always go for a second opinion.
                  Well you just do that,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  I dont have the time to peddle nonsense unlike you

                  I know what I am talking about but it seems you dont

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    Why don't you ask your Dr Biggs for a list of separate causes for a:
                    - Bloated face.
                    - Swollen tongue.
                    - Clasped fingers.
                    - Black blood in the brain.

                    Then ask him what single cause can produce all of them on the same body.
                    You might learn something.
                    I have already asked him some of those questions and have already posted his answers do you not read the posts? then you might also learn something

                    Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would, of course, be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation/suffocation.
                    A swollen tongue and / or face are non-specific findings. Many people try to attribute such findings to particular causations, but often it means nothing as a variety of mechanisms (natural and unnatural) can result in the same appearance. There is also no guarantee that somebody’s description of a ‘swollen’ tongue or face represents genuine swelling, as appearances of bodies after death can appear peculiar to observers and prompt all sorts of not-necessarily-objective descriptions.


                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                      I think that the very fact he 'ripped' his victims open and removed organs (a type of crime never really seen before) was always going raise the question of whether he had anatomical knowledge or be accused of being in some kind of related profession. Of course he could have had some knowledge but the fact is that its not like he had to. It not like there is something that would bar anyone from having a go?

                      I tend to think that he was not in the medical profession or even a butcher. His actions speak to me of someone who is possibly fascinated by the insides of the human body, specifically the insides of the female body. I think a doctor or even butcher would be able to use their profession to 'exorcise' as it were this fascination in what they did day to day. Very difficult back then for the average person who is pathologically obsessed with wanting to see the insides of a person to actually indulge that fantasy.
                      I agree - and as we know most serial killers will state that they acquire more experience as time (and the crimes) continue. Much depends on whether you believe JtR was involved before and after the canonical five as to whether he was anatomically experienced or not - let alone experienced with use of a six to eight inch knife enough to conceal, use and carry back.
                      Last edited by Filby; 08-08-2022, 02:27 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

                        "Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

                        "If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
                        Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

                          "Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

                          "If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
                          Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.
                          very interesting wicky. thanks for posting. this is right up fishermans alley and his theory that the ripper/torsoman/lech, got his inspiration from the anatomical venus displays.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            very interesting wicky. thanks for posting. this is right up fishermans alley and his theory that the ripper/torsoman/lech, got his inspiration from the anatomical venus displays.
                            I still don't know where Tabram fits into this.

                            The frenzied stabbing is indicative of rage or some kind of picquerism. It was not evident in any of the other Ripper or Torso murders. That's why I've always erred on the side of caution when it came to including her.

                            Potential tangent incoming!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                              I still don't know where Tabram fits into this.

                              The frenzied stabbing is indicative of rage or some kind of picquerism. It was not evident in any of the other Ripper or Torso murders. That's why I've always erred on the side of caution when it came to including her.

                              Potential tangent incoming!
                              well not really-because to your point(and its a good point)-tabram dosnt really show anatomical knowledge since she wasnt missing organs. if the killer (the ripper/torsoman/torsoripper) did have significant anatomical knowledge and she was part of the series, perhaps this was a trigger kill that was unplanned and or first street kill. however, at least where the ripper series is concerned, theres enough similarities to the others that im pretty confident she was a part of that series IMHO.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                Following the Kelly murder, one detective shared his thoughts on the perpetrator.

                                "Speaking of the Whitechapel murders in London, Private Detective Flinders said to a STAR reporter that no more mysterious crimes had ever been committed in the world What made them so mysterious was that there was no apparent motive. The victims were inmates of houses in the Whitechapel district and certainly the motive was not robbery, for there could hardly have been anything to steal. The murders, he thought, were committed by some person who is a crank on anatomy or possibly a religious crank who thinks by committing these murders he is going to reform the residents of Whitechapel..."

                                "If I should start out to investigate the murders," said the detective, "I would watch the museums of anatomy, spot the frequent visitors who seemed particularly anxious to study those portions of the human body which have been carried from the victims, and then keep an eye on him. I would also have the bookstores closely watched for some person not a physician who might purchase medical works. I would work the case on that theory, and think it would prove successful."
                                Evening Star, Washington, DC, 13 Nov. 1888.
                                James Maybrick had a 'Museum of Anatomy' on his doorstep in Liverpool.

                                Here is Gore's directory from 1860:

                                Click image for larger version  Name:	paradise-street.jpg Views:	0 Size:	147.4 KB ID:	792489


                                Here is a catalogue from 1877:
                                https://wellcomecollection.org/works/trct8akq
                                Author of 'Jack the Ripper: Threads' out now on Amazon > UK | USA | CA | AUS
                                JayHartley.com

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