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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    Something I have wondered about here is the anatomical knowledge of someone with an animal butchery background. A quick search shows suggests pig and human anatomy is incredibly similar. What if JtR did have a butchery background and was accustomed to working incredibly fast, perhaps even paid per carcass, so with an incentive to get his work down to a fine art and done quickly. Phillips does suggest that a slaughterman's blade could have been long enough and sharp enough if ground down very fine. It just struck me that the medical men were looking at it from a surgical background whereas someone with a slaughterer's background could have got it done quicker.
    Have a look at Mr Isenschmidt.

    From the History Press: "Throughout his life many friends, family members and eyewitnesses remarked that Isenschmid would act in strange and often violent ways suggesting an underlying mental illness. Sometime in 1882/83 his wife, Mary Ann Joyce, would claim that Jacob had a fit and that this was the cause of his strange behaviour. She also told the police during the Whitechapel investigation that Jacob would always carry a large knife with him. The locals nicknamed him the ‘Mad Pork Butcher’.

    On the 11th September Dr Cowen of Landseer Road and Dr Crabb of Hollyway Road informed the police that a landlord by the name of George Tyler named Isenschmid as the Whitechapel murderer. Mr Tyler owned a lodge house on Milford Road where Isenschmid took up accommodation after splitting up with his wife. Tyler claimed that Isenschmid would often stay out all night and was absent on one particular night – the murder of Annie Chapman.

    Crucially, an unusual incident occurred which potentially tied Isenschmid to the Chapman murder. A few moments after the murder Mrs Fiddymont, the landlady of the Prince Albert, encountered a ‘wild’ man with a torn and bloody shirt. Mrs Fiddymont’s pub was only 400 metres from the scene of Chapman’s murder. The suspect walked into the pub and purchased a drink before quickly leaving. Moments after the suspect met Joseph Taylor, a local builder, who followed the man for some time. Taylor remarked the individual’s ‘nervous and frightened way’ and noted that the man was holding his coat together at the top. Both Mrs Fiddymont and Joseph Taylor described a man matching the description of Jacob Isenschmid: early 40s, around 5’ 7” tall, curling ginger hair and a startled expression.

    Isenschmid was arrested on the 12th September by Sgt William Thick and quickly declared insane by officials. He was eventually sent to Bow Infirmary Asylum on Fairfield Road, Bow. The key detective in the case,
    Detective Abberline, would later note that despite any solid evidence Isenschmid was a crucial suspect."


    Obviously if Isenschmidt did kill Annie it would have been his last killing. So, no Canonical Five...as everyone so desperately clings to.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-16-2021, 07:30 PM.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Henry Gawen Sutton treated TB patients.

    He was also a pathologist and curator of the London Hospital's collection before Openshaw took over in 1887 and became his "Boss".

    Nichols and Eddowes were his inpatients from December 1867 with rheumatic fever.Eddowes kidney disease stemmed from that.

    Stride had a genetic disease which was one of his specialites, hence the cachous.

    Mary Ann Kelly was a member of his church as a child,also 1867..He was on the Vestry Board.
    Last edited by DJA; 11-16-2021, 02:56 PM.

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  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post

    Seems the killer knew she had TB that had infected her brain.

    Hmm ..... who was a chest expert and pathologist!
    I don't see how you can possibly say that.

    I'm sure I'll regret saying this - what is the chest expert/pathologist theory?

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    The head being opened showed that the membranes of the brain were opaque and the veins loaded with blood of a dark character. There was a large quantity of fluid between the membranes and the substance of the brain. The brain substance was unusually firm, and its cavities also contained a large amount of fluid. The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck.

    Coroner] Would it have been such an instrument as a medical man uses for post-mortem examinations? - The ordinary post-mortem case perhaps does not contain such a weapon.

    An attempt was made to take Chapman's head off.

    By someone who had a very specialized instrument.

    Seems the killer knew she had TB that had infected her brain.

    Hmm ..... who was a chest expert and pathologist!

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Used to work at KR Darling Downs,an abattoir outside Brisbane, where pigs were slaughtered for Xmas hams.

    Eddowes was not killed by a "butcher".

    What was done was quite methodical with certain goals in mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    His opinion is far more relevant, insightful, educated than either yours or mine, and he saw 4 of five canonicals dead. I wish people would start accepting expert testimony as just that. Hes the expert, unless you have proof to the contrary.

    When someone expert is asked for their opinion, its based on credibility. He has that.
    Something I have wondered about here is the anatomical knowledge of someone with an animal butchery background. A quick search shows suggests pig and human anatomy is incredibly similar. What if JtR did have a butchery background and was accustomed to working incredibly fast, perhaps even paid per carcass, so with an incentive to get his work down to a fine art and done quickly. Phillips does suggest that a slaughterman's blade could have been long enough and sharp enough if ground down very fine. It just struck me that the medical men were looking at it from a surgical background whereas someone with a slaughterer's background could have got it done quicker.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    In the case of Annie Chapman, the doctor who examined her in death, and 4 of Five Canonicals, suggested that in Annies case "there were no meaningless cuts". He felt he could determine why the cuts were made, why the order, why the type, and to what end. He cut where and how he had to, to obtain what he wanted to acquire.

    Hello Michael,

    The doctor was expressing his opinion not an established fact. How did he arrive at that conclusion? Do we know what expertise he possessed in that regard? Also, he was never pressed on his conclusion or forced to defend it. I think we need to treat his opinion with respect but also take it with a grain of salt and certainly not take it as the word of God.

    c.d.
    His opinion is far more relevant, insightful, educated than either yours or mine, and he saw 4 of five canonicals dead. I wish people would start accepting expert testimony as just that. Hes the expert, unless you have proof to the contrary.

    When someone expert is asked for their opinion, its based on credibility. He has that.

    Leave a comment:


  • c.d.
    replied
    In the case of Annie Chapman, the doctor who examined her in death, and 4 of Five Canonicals, suggested that in Annies case "there were no meaningless cuts". He felt he could determine why the cuts were made, why the order, why the type, and to what end. He cut where and how he had to, to obtain what he wanted to acquire.

    Hello Michael,

    The doctor was expressing his opinion not an established fact. How did he arrive at that conclusion? Do we know what expertise he possessed in that regard? Also, he was never pressed on his conclusion or forced to defend it. I think we need to treat his opinion with respect but also take it with a grain of salt and certainly not take it as the word of God.

    c.d.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark J D
    replied
    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

    Hi Mark,
    This might be up your street.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5406675/
    Thanks so much for this! Lots to digest, there!

    M.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

    The Kelly murder is an evisceration murder where more violence has been applied to the body than in the other four cases. The likely reason for the added cutting is the venue, offering seclusion and time. The cut away abdominal walls clinch the matter well beyond reasonable doubt.

    Shovels and excavators are both about digging into the earth, so that comparison is not bad.
    On the last line the point I was making is that using a shovel and using an excavator may both be for moving earth, but they are 2 very different tools. They are generally not used for the same types of jobs. You mention that you feel the "likely" reason for this additional activity is that he was alone and had time with the deceased. Im not sure based on Annie Chapmans murder or Kate Eddowes murder that perceived available time was any hinderance to him, and presumably all the woman were alone with their killer...including some of the 8 or nine unsolved murders that are not presumed carried out by JtR. The flaps were in the papers almost a month before this murder, that potential influence must be considered, so you being reasonable sure and the matter not being solved by that comfort is still problematic. As is presuming that myriad of cuts and slashes and excavations and bone exposing activities is just a result of time on his hands. Your Torso guy also had extended private access and time......I wonder, was there any bone stripped of flesh? The Torso maker worked indoors... alone, how come Mary is in one piece structurally if that man was involved here?

    The thing is that some of the wounds that are made reveal intent, to some degree. If wounds are made that do not easily reveal intent...like stripping one thigh of flesh completely and 1 thigh only partially for example, you cannot be sure of why the actions were taken.

    In the case of Annie Chapman, the doctor who examined her in death, and 4 of Five Canonicals, suggested that in Annies case "there were no meaningless cuts". He felt he could determine why the cuts were made, why the order, why the type, and to what end. He cut where and how he had to, to obtain what he wanted to acquire.

    Now do that with the thigh stripping.

    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-11-2021, 08:37 PM.

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  • mpriestnall
    replied
    Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

    Yeah, Martyn!

    There's thought to be a genetic component to psychopathy according to Robert Hare and others, so it could indeed be inherited.

    Thinking about it from a non-genetic angle, I'm sure that having a parent or primary care giver who scored high on the psychopathy checklist could also have an impact without there necessarily being a genetic component (nurture v nature so to speak).

    That's merely my own musing though, so treat with caution!
    Thanks MS Diddles.

    The nurture v nature non-genetic component was an interesting thought. My candidate's father was a surgeon and I have wondered how he may have influenced him, genetically or otherwise. His behavior and attitude to his "low class" patients, being absent from home because of work, his parent's relationship and so on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/...sbull.2015.331

    Henry Sutton?

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

    Pardon my unfashionable aesthetics; but to me, an actual, genuine artist -- as opposed to what R G Collingwood might have described as 'an artist falsely so called' -- is so centrally involved with psychological operations relating to experienced affect, reactivity, empathy, and the realistic 'generalisability' of personal experience that *I can't imagine such abilities coexisting with psychopathy*...

    Now, there are professions in which [etc]...
    A stressful job: are surgeons psychopaths? | The Bulletin of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (rcseng.ac.uk)

    M.
    Hi Mark,
    This might be up your street.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5406675/

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

    Pardon my unfashionable aesthetics; but to me, an actual, genuine artist -- as opposed to what R G Collingwood might have described as 'an artist falsely so called' -- is so centrally involved with psychological operations relating to experienced affect, reactivity, empathy, and the realistic 'generalisability' of personal experience that *I can't imagine such abilities coexisting with psychopathy*...

    Now, there are professions in which [etc]...
    A stressful job: are surgeons psychopaths? | The Bulletin of the Royal College of Surgeons of England (rcseng.ac.uk)

    M.
    So an ability to handle stress? Surprise, surprise…

    Leave a comment:


  • Ms Diddles
    replied
    Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

    Thanks for posting these links.

    I have a special interest in the supposed correlation between psychopathy and surgeons. Jack may have had some medical training or at least anatomical knowledge. And my candidate for Jack is descended down from a handful of surgeons through his father's line and his mother's father and grandfather were also surgeons. My candidate though did not follow their lead, but was working in an office at the age of 17. Still he had enough opportunities I would have thought to gain sufficient medical knowledge that some doctors of the time said Jack showed in some of his murders.

    If psychopathy has a genetic cause and is inheritable, perhaps then he also inherited this from his surgeon ancestors? Am I correct in believing psychopathy is an inheritable trait?
    Yeah, Martyn!

    There's thought to be a genetic component to psychopathy according to Robert Hare and others, so it could indeed be inherited.

    Thinking about it from a non-genetic angle, I'm sure that having a parent or primary care giver who scored high on the psychopathy checklist could also have an impact without there necessarily being a genetic component (nurture v nature so to speak).

    That's merely my own musing though, so treat with caution!

    Leave a comment:

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