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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
    I've always thought that the dates form an interesting pattern:

    7th Aug
    31st Aug
    8th Sept
    30th Sept
    9th Nov (although 9th Oct would technically have fit better, so I'm using a bit of artistic license here admittedly!!!).

    So, following this pattern you would expect the next murder to be on 29th November, then 10th December......

    To clarify, I don't actually believe that this is anything more than coincidence.

    I'm confident that it's just my homo sapien brain doing what comes naturally and creating patterns out of chaos, but it's another of the funny little quirks which one observes in this case.
    Hi Ms Diddles

    The October dates (9th and 29th) were both weekdays, so perhaps 9th November is the next date that fits the pattern and explains why October was murder free. But I'll stick with your conclusion that it is just a coincidence.

    Although saying that - the next 29th that fell on a weekend was in December (the day Jon Gill was discovered murdered in ripper style) and the next 10th after that falling on a weekend was in February 1889 (the day William Henry Bury killed his wife). Just saying.
    Last edited by etenguy; 07-26-2021, 04:53 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by etenguy View Post

      Hi Ms Diddles

      The October dates (9th and 29th) were both weekdays, so perhaps 9th November is the next date that fits the pattern and explains why October was murder free. But I'll stick with your conclusion that it is just a coincidence.

      Although saying that - the next 29th that fell on a weekend was in December (the day Jon Gill was discovered murdered in ripper style) and the next 10th after that falling on a weekend was in February 1889 (the day William Henry Bury killed his wife). Just saying.
      Curioser and Curioser!!!

      It didn't occur to me to check which dates were week days as opposed to weekends!

      Yeah, I still vote coincidence all the way, but it's interesting to observe these little quirks.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

        Curioser and Curioser!!!

        It didn't occur to me to check which dates were week days as opposed to weekends!

        Yeah, I still vote coincidence all the way, but it's interesting to observe these little quirks.
        Hi Ms Diddles

        Place William Henry Bury in Bradford (and he did have Yorkshire connections) over Christmas 1888 and you have solved the case!

        But it is a remarkable coincidence that ripper style murders are discovered on exactly the days the date pattern predicts and there are no other ripper style murders over that period ( 10 Nov 1888 - Feb 1889). It is surely a coincidence but it is a bit spooky (to quote a famous Australian megastar).

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

          Do you happen to know where Chapman's Court might be? I've not been able to locate it on maps nor in census listings. As far as I can tell, the rear entrance to the mortuary would have been accessed via Pavillion Yard.
          The mention of Chapman's Court was I think first printed in the East London Advertiser 8th September, which wasn't published until a few hours after Annie was found dead (too late for her murder to make it into that issue). Unless anyone knows different? So it seems that the killer would have had to have seen the hearse enter the court (presuming it existed), but the whole idea of taking the back route was to avoid the crowd at the main entrance, so this seems unlikely.
          Hi Joshua

          I couldn't find Chapman's Court on the map either - I wonder if it was a local, rather than official, name.
          ​​​​​​​There was one newspaper (at least) that reported the route of the body on 7 September - the South Wales Echo which stated:

          A pair-horsed closed hearse was observed making its way down Hanbury-street and the crowds, which numbered some thousands, made way for it to go along Old Montague-street, but instead of so doing it passed on into Whitechapel-road, and doubling back it reached the mortuary by the back gate, which is situated in Chapman's-court.
          Last edited by etenguy; 07-27-2021, 01:22 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by etenguy View Post

            Hi Jeff

            Thank you for adding some perspective to the observation, and of course coincidences occur all the time. The biggest coincidence quoted here is the jane kelly/mary ann kelly/dorset street one. That just seems so improbable a coincidence that it sets off all sorts of thoughts. But these types of things do happen by chance and I have come across this at work. I work in a team of four people, including myself. All of us have December birthdays, myself and one other have our birthdays on the same day and were born in the same year. That must be incredibly improbable, and I'm pretty sure date of birth was not a recruitment criteria.

            With regards to Annie Chapman and Elizabeth Stride, Annie Chapman's first name was Eliza even though she went by her middle name Ann. Elizabeth Stride used the name Annie Fitzgerald at some of her Court appearances. So the swapping of Eliza(beth) for Annie by both is a coincidence but seems even to me to be a stretch as a connection. I don't know about a name coincidence between Stride and Eddowes, but potentially Eddowes was a random victim if the killer was disturbed in his attack on Stride.

            I'm persuaded that these are coincidences resulting from the large amount of data and trying to see patterns across the data, but there is still a part of me that wonders.
            Hi etenguy,

            When Stride was killed, she was separated from her Kidney - Michael Kidney, that is. The ripper went on to separate Eddowes from her kidney.

            Maybe he had intended to separate Stride from her kidney, as a sick joke, but couldn't risk the attempt in that location.

            Leather Apron had departed the scene, but was shortly replaced in the case evidence by Eddowes's apron!

            Love,

            Caz
            X





            "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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            • #21

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              • #22
                Originally posted by caz View Post

                Hi etenguy,

                When Stride was killed, she was separated from her Kidney - Michael Kidney, that is. The ripper went on to separate Eddowes from her kidney.

                Maybe he had intended to separate Stride from her kidney, as a sick joke, but couldn't risk the attempt in that location.

                Leather Apron had departed the scene, but was shortly replaced in the case evidence by Eddowes's apron!

                Love,

                Caz
                X




                I love it! Some brilliant creativity in action. Our bits of knowledge are the clay, the theorist the artist, and what an infinite number of shapes we can form.

                - Jeff

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by caz View Post

                  Hi etenguy,

                  When Stride was killed, she was separated from her Kidney - Michael Kidney, that is. The ripper went on to separate Eddowes from her kidney.

                  Maybe he had intended to separate Stride from her kidney, as a sick joke, but couldn't risk the attempt in that location.

                  Leather Apron had departed the scene, but was shortly replaced in the case evidence by Eddowes's apron!

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  Hi Caz

                  That completes the link between all the victims - so with all the coincidences we have amassed we have the killer giving a clue to his next victim, providing the date of the next murder and on occasion the place the victim will be murdered - how did the police not catch him?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                    Hi Caz

                    That completes the link between all the victims - so with all the coincidences we have amassed we have the killer giving a clue to his next victim, providing the date of the next murder and on occasion the place the victim will be murdered - how did the police not catch him?
                    Ok, line the dates for the C5 up with the names:
                    31 Polly Nichols
                    8 Annie Chapman
                    30 Elizabeth Stride
                    30 Catherine Eddowes
                    9 Mary Kelly
                    We have dates at the start of the month, and at the end of the month. So take the initial from either the first, or last name, depending upon the date (start of month = first name, end of month = last name). And we get nasem, an anagram for manse!

                    JtR is a priest. And the GSG refers to the Christians blaming the Jews for handing over Jesus for crucifixion. And he was on a crusade against one of the deadly sins, that of lust.

                    And Martha Tabram, on the 7th, gives us another M, to pair with the last M of the series, which stands for Moab and Midian, and we have a letter for proof of that.

                    There, all done. Final archive of the site can begin.

                    - Jeff
                    Last edited by JeffHamm; 07-29-2021, 09:17 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Oh, and to separate out the anagram for manse from Martha, he had to switch to throat cutting and mutilations. It's all part of the code.

                      - Jeff

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                        Oh, and to separate out the anagram for manse from Martha, he had to switch to throat cutting and mutilations. It's all part of the code.

                        - Jeff
                        The single deep wound through Tabram's heart is symbolic of the wound made by a Roman soldier as an act of mercy upon Christ. To wit, through the act of killing, comes redemption.
                        Thems the Vagaries.....

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                          The single deep wound through Tabram's heart is symbolic of the wound made by a Roman soldier as an act of mercy upon Christ. To wit, through the act of killing, comes redemption.
                          It's amazing how clear it all becomes when you find the right clues.

                          - Jeff

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                            It's amazing how clear it all becomes when you find the right clues.

                            - Jeff
                            What are the odds eh?
                            Thems the Vagaries.....

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                            • #29
                              Same as a serial killer on "Criminal Minds" having abusive parents and/or childhood trauma at the root of his (or her) crimes.
                              Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                              ---------------
                              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                              ---------------

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by etenguy View Post
                                Quite often in the study of the Ripper murders, we come across seemingly extraordinary coincidences. Sometimes these coincidences are seen as actions of agency and not coincidences at all. Individually each coincidence can be accepted as such, but when these form a pattern, are they telling us something? I have been thinking about a couple of these coincidences and would like to suggest that perhaps the Ripper victims were possibly not all as random as is commonly believed and that possibly the murderer was playing with the police.

                                The coincidences I am specifically referring to are:
                                a) Mary Ann Nichol's funeral route to a funeral director's in Hanbury Street through the back entrance in Chapman's Court two days before Annie Chapman is murdered in Hanbury Street.
                                b) The finding of the bloodied apron piece in Goulston Street underneath gaffitti potentially referencing the murder at the Jewish club and blaming the club members for a second victim.
                                c) The murder of Mary Jane Kelly in Dorset Street/Miller's Court after the murderer's previous victim's use of the names Jane Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly and the address 6 Dorset Street.

                                Do these coincidences, taken together, point to the Ripper choosing certain of his victims to taunt the police or are they just coincidences? I wonder if he was playing cat and mouse with the cops.
                                I think that there is great value in making sure that blanket assumptions havent corrupted the potential for discovery. By Blanket Assumptions I refer to the many coincidences we find throughout the alledged series, how people generally perceive them, and what they might reveal if properly put into context.

                                For my two cents I see "a" as something that might well be coincidence, because if he saw that location as a good one for him he either mistook the fact that so many people lived in that house, that many windows looked onto that yard, there is only one way in and out of the yard, and additionally his timing is running the risk of trying to finish his act in early daylight. I think cumulatively that suggests the venue was opportunistically presented and taken.

                                Now "b" is in my opinion not coincidence at all, I believe it was intentional and intended to convey just the message you interpreted it as. Which for me suggests that ONLY a very few people would have had the knowledge to write that,...and even fewer with an opportunity to access that apron section. I think if its not coincidence, then the killer left both.

                                "c" is for me the most interesting of the group youve offered. Between the arrest report and the pawn slip the combined name/addresses Kate gave include Mary Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset street. People imagine that its coincidence and thats usually based on a presumption that she is just manipulating her own links to a surname of Kelly.

                                But there are plenty of Kellys about, arent there? And yet only 1 Kelly that is the very next victim of this particular presumed "series". Lots of Kellys, sure...but how many female Kelly's in Dorset Street would have their own rented room in the name of Mary Jane Kelly? If she is using her knowledge of the woman we know as Mary Jane Kelly, the why the inaccuracy with the address? Why 6 Dorset,...why not 13 Millers Court? Perhaps she is leaving those names and addresses to warn the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly. The combined name and address she gave could not lead to Mary Jane directly, it wasnt accurate, but the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly would have seen that connection despite the "6 Dorset Street" error. It is said that Mary had been reluctant to work the streets the weeks before her death, and possibly as a result, become unable to keep up with her rent. Might those few weeks of trepidation be based on Kate's "warning" to her?

                                This is how coincidences influence how people see these murders, if they are not all coincidences, then which are not and what do they mean?
                                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 01-12-2022, 01:40 AM.
                                Michael Richards

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