The Absence Of Evidence

[caz]

I'm with the majority on this.

I really can't see what evidence of an interruption one would expect to see.....??

I'm with Caz, in that I am not sure that Stride was a victim of JTR.

On balance, I slightly lean towards the idea that she was, but I am by no means certain.

I keep changing my mind on this!

But really, based purely on the topic of this poll, we MAY have seen evidence of interruption, but the fact that we don't doesn't mean that there wasn't one.

Again, what would that interruption look like?

Hi Ms D,

You may have misread my post, because while I may be wrong, I do lean quite heavily towards Stride being a ripper victim. I just think that on this occasion, the woman herself, the place and time, and the circumstances, all conspired against him - he wasn't a robot or Superman, after all - and directly resulted in Eddowes being the next victim.

In short, he nearly screwed up, because he was human and not always in perfect control of what was going on around him.

Love,

Caz
X

[Kattrup]

How much "curriculum" kill training do you think there was prior to the 20th century? Yet, every major battle in the last thousand years will have victims of throat cutting. The impression they read instructions in "how to be an army soldier" handbook is somewhat silly. People were trained by people, before textbooks became all the rage.

Well, that's the point, I don't think there was any such training prior to the 20th century. The fact that people have used throat cutting to kill others since the invention of cutting does not seem very relevant - what I questioned was your assertion that it was "military killing technique" particularly for those trained in close combat.


Perhaps it would be best then if you explain what you mean? To me, your statement clearly implies that soldiers were trained in this "technique". But it seems you just meant that soldiers may have used it in combat and have had first- or second-hand experience with it. I interpret that statement to mean: some soldiers may have used it themselves in the military (firsthand, during conflicts in various colonial places, perhaps), or they may have heard their mates tell them about it (second-hand) without actually being trained to do it.

For your information, textbooks on how to be a soldier are not a modern invention, they are in fact an early modern invention and have been around for centuries. The military being highly regulated and bureaucratic, we know a lot about what soldiers were trained to do and what they were supposed to be doing at various times during their training and later during their postings to various duty stations.

By stating that people were trained by people and implying that textbooks are immaterial to our understanding of how soldiers were trained, it seems to me that you believe training was an informal matter left to the discretion of individual drill instructors. That is just completely wrong.


It's no big deal - but the argument has been repeated by various people some times over the years - and 'm certainly no expert on Victorian military training, but in summary: from the wording you used, you've given the impression that some soldiers would have been trained in how to cut throats.

I do not think there's anything to back this up, and so I've asked you to clarify what you mean, exactly.

[erobitha]

WARNING: Not Safe For Work. Contains Graphic Content

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843282/

This above article of throat cutting by a forensic pathlogist gives some excellent insights into murders committed by those who use throat cutting method as their means to efficiently kill their victims.

"...Homicidal cut throats can be produced in two different ways; depending on whether they are produced from the back or the front. Of those two methods, cutting a person’s throat from behind is the most common. The head is pulled back, and the knife is then drawn across it. The knife is drawn across the neck, from left to right by a right-handed assailant and from right to left by a left-handed individual..."

"...Contrary to that, the homicidal cut throats inflicted from the front tend to be short and angled. Horizontal wounds inflicted from the front are the least common..."

[JeffHamm]

I would hope the regular soldiers stationed close by at the Tower would be included among those 'familiar' with the method of taking someone out by cutting their throat. Also, it was even commented on in the press that certain foreigners (I think Spaniards & Malays were noted?), use this method of decapitation, so we shouldn't limit ourselves to the few employees at the east end slaughter houses.
Slicing the jugular vein could also be a clue to the level of education of the perpetrator, not only his possible trade.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes, those are also options. Soldiers were implicated in Tabram's murder, though there it was stabbing not throat cutting. Also, I would think a soldier would be trained to cut a throat by attacking from behind and with the victim standing, but that isn't a major objection to the idea really. The press commentary on what was done in other countries would need to be backed up by more reliable sources. I'm sure there were murders where a victim was decapitated with a knife, but it would be similar to a Spanish paper suggesting that the English use disembowelment, simply due to the sensational press coverage making a rare event seem frequent (and frequent events, which don't get reported because they're not "news" seem more rare). Anyway, given the number working in the slaughter trade in the area, it's simple the size of the potential pool that points in that direction. Something more specific would easily over ride that.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

That's an interesting line of thought. We don't even have to assume someone who kept silent, perhaps Stride's killer was spooked by Morris Eagle entering the yard about 12:40, hid till Eagle entered the club, and then fled. Maybe we should take a closer look at Leon Goldstein.

or schwartz interupted him. we actually do have evidence for that.

[Abby Normal]

Well to make it easy or you to understand and because you seem confused. If I say that there was no Jack the Ripper but there was a killer who killed in ripper like fashion and his name could quite easily have been Carl Feigenbaum.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

you cant make this stuff up folks.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's just cynical Herlock. Cynical.

[Fiver]

True. It might not even have been Diemschutz that initially caused him to stop? A noise from somewhere nearby perhaps? Maybe someone opened the side door and went to the outside toilet a minute or two before Diemschutz returned? That person would have been facing away from the Club and so might not have seen the killer. He might not have come forward and admitted that he’d been in the yard because he didn’t want to be implicated.

That's an interesting line of thought. We don't even have to assume someone who kept silent, perhaps Stride's killer was spooked by Morris Eagle entering the yard about 12:40, hid till Eagle entered the club, and then fled. Maybe we should take a closer look at Leon Goldstein.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

???

So there was a man murdering women in the same way as a man that never existed in the first place? And that person, who can’t be shown to have been in the same country as this killer that didn’t exist but who he was nevertheless imitating, is still more likely than any other imitator of a non-existent killer to be the actual imitator of a non-existent killer that we have all futilely been searching for for years?

That's just cynical Herlock. Cynical.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well to make it easy or you to understand and because you seem confused. If I say that there was no Jack the Ripper but there was a killer who killed in ripper like fashion and his name could quite easily have been Carl Feigenbaum.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

???

So there was a man murdering women in the same way as a man that never existed in the first place? And that person, who can’t be shown to have been in the same country as this killer that didn’t exist but who he was nevertheless imitating, is still more likely than any other imitator of a non-existent killer to be the actual imitator of a non-existent killer that we have all futilely been searching for for years?

[Trevor Marriott]

which is it trevor? there was no ripper, or the ripper was feigenbaum. you cant have it both ways

Well to make it easy or you to understand and because you seem confused. If I say that there was no Jack the Ripper but there was a killer who killed in ripper like fashion and his name could quite easily have been Carl Feigenbaum.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[erobitha]

Was it in Victorian times? Just seen Kattrup beat me to it! Can imagine your standard infantry man being taught this back then?

Was it?

It's an often repeated theory, but I've never seen it substantiated. Personally I'd consider it unlikely that any military force anywhere in the world would have throat-cutting on their curriculum in 1888.

Seems to me to be interest in various special forces from the 20th century onwards that is colouring the perspective.

How much "curriculum" kill training do you think there was prior to the 20th century? Yet, every major battle in the last thousand years will have victims of throat cutting. The impression they read instructions in "how to be an army soldier" handbook is somewhat silly. People were trained by people, before textbooks became all the rage.

A quick look at the knives used in battle during the American Civil War will give you a clue that many were not using their knives to cut wood.

"....A private in the white 29th Iowa Infantry, whose regiment supported the 2nd Kansas, wrote his family: "One of our boys seen a little n*gro pounding a wounded reb in the head with the but of his gun and asked him what he was doing. the n*gro replied he is not dead yet!" During a subsequent lull in the fighting, details from the 2nd Kansas ranged the field, cutting the throats of Confederate wounded. "We found that many of our wounded had been mutilated in many ways," reported the surgeon of the 33rd Arkansas Infantry. "Some with ears cut off, throats cut, knife stabs, etc. My brother . . . had his throat cut through the windpipe and lived several days."

[Abby Normal]

We do have a suspect who was in the Prussian army and I do believe that the killer knew how to kill swiftly and silently.

and i also believe that the victims had their throats cut from behind whilst still standing, and was method used back then.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

which is it trevor? there was no ripper, or the ripper was feigenbaum. you cant have it both ways

[Trevor Marriott]

People often overlook that this was also a military killing technique. Especially in those trained in close-combat. It must be considered as a posible source of first-hand or second-hand knowledge.

We do have a suspect who was in the Prussian army and I do believe that the killer knew how to kill swiftly and silently.

and i also believe that the victims had their throats cut from behind whilst still standing, and was method used back then.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Losmandris]

People often overlook that this was also a military killing technique. Especially in those trained in close-combat. It must be considered as a posible source of first-hand or second-hand knowledge.

Was it in Victorian times? Just seen Kattrup beat me to it! Can imagine your standard infantry man being taught this back then?