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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Also, the notion of JtR slinking into the darkness, further up the driveway, was explicitly rejected by Diemshitz himself.
    There were outhouses under the cover of darkness slightly up the yard before the cottages.
    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      According to The Star account of the Israel Schwartz incident...



      So how did the second man manage to emerge from the doorway of the beer house if it were closed at the time?
      Was Pipeman (now Knifeman) the publican, an employee of the publican, or a friend of the publican who had stayed inside after the official closing time?
      If any of these, why was Pipeman never located?
      That depends on how one interprets the later reports, it's implied that Pipeman was identified and cleared, but, it's not conclusive. Let's face it, nothing is.
      Thems the Vagaries.....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

        There were outhouses under the cover of darkness slightly up the yard before the cottages.
        Mrs (Sarah) Diemschitz, quoted in the MA of Oct2:

        "Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct. He at once sent for a policeman. He is positive that before entering the yard he did not see any man about the street. It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground. When the police came we were told that we must not quit the premises, and everybody was at once searched. Nothing was found to occasion suspicion, and the members were eventually allowed to go. At four o'clock the body was removed to the mortuary, and later on in the morning the police washed away the bloodstains from the side of the yard. I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave."

        Breaking this down:
        • How one would hear a whisper over the upstairs singing is unclear, but Schwartz claimed that Stride "screamed three times but not very loudly". These must have been very quiet screams indeed. SD apparently did not hear these screams, nor hear BS Man speak words to Stride, or yell 'Lipski'. SD said she was close to the side entrance, and the door was partially open. She heard nothing until Louis 'suddenly' entered - not even the hoofs of the pony it seems. Fanny Mortimer found this inability to hear any of what went on in the yard, quite incredible.
        • SD tells us that light from the gas jets in the kitchen lit up a part of the yard. Now I believe that the kitchen door was inset from the side door of the building. That would mean the arc of light onto the yard would have been quite narrow. So did this light illuminate anything of significance? If not, why mention it? If yes, what? Either way, the illuminated area would pretty much coincide with the outhouses, although I will have to check up on this.
        • Why were multiple gas jets blazing at 1am, anyway? What was being cooked at the time, and for who? Were they preparing a big late night meal for everyone for when Louis got home?
        • SD tells us she saw a pool of blood by the door, even before Louis had struck a match. The victim lay several feet away, near the gates. How did the blood manage to not only make it all the way to the door, but also commence pooling there, if the crime had been committed just prior to Louis entering the yard? It's as though the murder actually occurred at 00:45, when Arbeter Fraint said it did.
        • SD says the victim was lying on her back. Perhaps she was mistaken, but all other accounts I'm aware of have the victim on her side.
        • SD says that when she screamed, the club members rushed downstairs and out into the yard. It would seem the pony and cart were not in the way, already.
        • SD claimed Louis examined the body. Does Louis ever concur with this claim?
        • SD said Louis sent for a policeman. Did he send Kozebrodsky on that mission, and stay behind himself?
        • SD then reiterates her point about the singing not preventing her from hearing screams or sound of any kind.

        So can we believe Mrs Diemschitz insisting that she heard nothing in the yard?
        Perhaps, but what about?...

        The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

        Well not really, considering this omits a few details the 'witness' 'forgot' to mention, and should read something like this...

        The man tried to pull the woman into Mitre Street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the Mitre Square footway & the woman moaned in pain, but not very loudly.

        Can't blame Sarah for not hearing that.
        Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 09-02-2020, 10:26 AM.
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          According to The Star account of the Israel Schwartz incident...



          So how did the second man manage to emerge from the doorway of the beer house if it were closed at the time?
          Was Pipeman (now Knifeman) the publican, an employee of the publican, or a friend of the publican who had stayed inside after the official closing time?
          If any of these, why was Pipeman never located?
          All pubs in the area closed at 12:00am, that is just a matter of fact.
          Spooner just said the same thing, he left the pub at 12:00am, closing time.
          Anyone can stand in a doorway, out of the wind, to light a pipe?, or out of the drizzle (rain) that might be coming down. Packer said there was rain.


          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            All pubs in the area closed at 12:00am, that is just a matter of fact.
            Spooner just said the same thing, he left the pub at 12:00am, closing time.
            Anyone can stand in a doorway, out of the wind, to light a pipe?, or out of the drizzle (rain) that might be coming down. Packer said there was rain.

            There was rain and at the time Packer the 'fantasist' claimed.
            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              All pubs in the area closed at 12:00am, that is just a matter of fact.
              Spooner just said the same thing, he left the pub at 12:00am, closing time.
              Anyone can stand in a doorway, out of the wind, to light a pipe?, or out of the drizzle (rain) that might be coming down. Packer said there was rain.
              Just as anyone can make up a scenario to explain away inconvenient facts.

              The Star account does not say the second man stood in the doorway, it says he came out of the doorway.
              It is hardly meaningful to talk of coming out of a doorway, if the doors are locked closed.
              The Star may have the details wrong, or it may be spot on. Whatever the case, this is what we have to work with.

              As for sheltering from the wind (what wind?) to light a pipe, you're forgetting something crucial - what pipe?
              The second man in the Star account doesn't have a pipe, he has a knife, and approaches the first man with the knife in hand.

              So what about sheltering from the rain?
              A quick visit to the official docs inquest page on Stride, and what do we find?

              Dr Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.
              James Brown: [Coroner] Was it raining at the time? - No. I went on.
              PC Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.
              Pipe/Knifeman was not sheltering from the rain, because it was not raining at the time.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post


                PC Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

                Pipe/Knifeman was not sheltering from the rain, because it was not raining at the time.
                Since when was "very little rain", no rain at all?
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  Since when was "very little rain", no rain at all?
                  So Schwartz' second man was apparently outside alone after midnight, but felt the need to shelter from (at most) very little rain, and then just as Israel was crossing to the boarding school side of Berner Street, the man decided he was in fact man enough to handle the light sprinkle, and proceeded to walk away from his little shelter on the corner, and towards Israel. Israel spotted him, got spooked for no obvious reason, and then ran all the way to the railway arch.

                  Is that really what you suppose happened?
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    Eight days after surgery, stitches still in place.



                    No stitches for Eddowes?

                    What was she operated on for?
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      So Schwartz' second man was apparently outside alone after midnight, but felt the need to shelter from (at most) very little rain, and then just as Israel was crossing to the boarding school side of Berner Street, the man decided he was in fact man enough to handle the light sprinkle, and proceeded to walk away from his little shelter on the corner, and towards Israel. Israel spotted him, got spooked for no obvious reason, and then ran all the way to the railway arch.

                      Is that really what you suppose happened?
                      Licensee lighting up a knock off pipe.

                      Possibly used a small knife to clean his pipe out.
                      It's what I used to do.

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Berner Fairclough cnr JTR.jpg Views:	0 Size:	289.8 KB ID:	741139
                      Last edited by DJA; 09-02-2020, 05:18 PM.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • Click image for larger version

Name:	pipe knife Rogers.jpg
Views:	65
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ID:	741143
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • Jt was apparently raining heavily when Lawende and Co wandered home.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            So Schwartz' second man was apparently outside alone after midnight, but felt the need to shelter from (at most) very little rain, and then just as Israel was crossing to the boarding school side of Berner Street, the man decided he was in fact man enough to handle the light sprinkle, and proceeded to walk away from his little shelter on the corner, and towards Israel. Israel spotted him, got spooked for no obvious reason, and then ran all the way to the railway arch.

                            Is that really what you suppose happened?
                            If you were a pipe smoker you wouldn't find it unusual to step into a doorway to light the pipe. Though, in this case we can't be sure it was a pipe he was carrying. Very few witnesses mention rain, yet the weather conditions for Whitechapel show 0.27 inch of rain.
                            We know it can rain on one side of a street and not on the other, showers may have been sporadic, it doesn't matter. The point is, it was raining to some degree. You may not like Packer, but he was right about this fact.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              What was she operated on for?
                              Xanthelasma
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                                If you were a pipe smoker you wouldn't find it unusual to step into a doorway to light the pipe. Though, in this case we can't be sure it was a pipe he was carrying. Very few witnesses mention rain, yet the weather conditions for Whitechapel show 0.27 inch of rain.
                                We know it can rain on one side of a street and not on the other, showers may have been sporadic, it doesn't matter. The point is, it was raining to some degree. You may not like Packer, but he was right about this fact.
                                If anyone cares to read about the rain on the night, there is a dissertation covering this.

                                https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...ostpacker.html

                                The author concludes that Packer closed up shop owing to the rain, but this around was at around 11.30pm.
                                The Schwartz incident was of course at 12:45am.

                                There was no rain at the time Schwartz claims to have walked down Berner Street, but supposing there was, why doesn't Pipeman stay under his little shelter when Schwartz is walking by?
                                If he is indeed sheltering from rain as Jon insists, doesn't that make it less likely that he would walk away from the corner, than if it were not raining at all?
                                Please provide a scenario that gets Schwartz out of trouble. This is important!
                                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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