Coincidence?

[FISHY1118]

The Chapman TOD was lost before you began when you ludicrously began to claim that you knew more about Forensic Science than all of the world's experts. Dream on Fishy. The Cadosch thread shows that the vast majority accept him as a reliable witness too. The science kills your childish arguments. But of course you still claim that Dr Phillips had magical powers......except when he stated categorically that Chapman was killed where she was found of course and at around 5.25

Knight is contemptible, laughable drivel and everyone apart from you knows it.

Eddowes was killed where she was found, like the rest of the victims of the solitary serial killer Jack the Ripper.

You cannot debate like an adult. You have been caught out in so many lies it’s become embarrassing. You duck questions, try to change the subject, answer different questions apart from the ones you were asked, make points and then refuse the opportunity to back them up. You claim I’ve said things and when I’ve proved that I haven’t you go on to make the same claims again. You claim things as fact that no one can possibly know. And you cling to a theory that no one else believes in as if it’s credible.

Not exactly a shining record is it.

If you put as much effort into debating logically and fairly as you do into avoiding debate and making things up you might get taken seriously.but you don’t....so you aren’t. I can’t recall you ever making a serious, well thought out post. Ever.

Seriously Jmenges , how can this attack be allowed , im now ludicrous and childish and now im called an embarrassing lair who cant make a serious post .... ever . talk about a vicious attack on ones integrity on a public forum just for sharing my opinion on the jack the ripper murders .

You need to put a stop to this , other posters have had the same treatment from this person for far too long now .

[etenguy]

Don't presume it to be 'the state'

Think of the political climate
Think of the locations

Indeed. The state is only one possible player - other groups and associations could well have their own motives - but not specifically talking about freemasons, though not to ignore them either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Bounds of reason ?..... Hmmmmm i dont think so . You must mean a different knight, not the one that wrote the final solution . Indeed FINAL

That only you believe in. Don’t you get some kind of hint from that Fishy? That you might have a bit of a fixation on Knight? No one believes it. Its a very obviously made up story with more holes in it than your average string vest. Hundreds of people interested in the case and only you still taken in by Knight. Wake up Fishy. It was over 40 years ago.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good to see your on the right track , you just have your facts all round the wrong way . But hey if thats the way u want to interpret them fine go ahead . However many others know differently and ive already explained them to you . I have you on Chapman T.O.D and Eddowes being killed elsewhere. Enough said.

The Chapman TOD was lost before you began when you ludicrously began to claim that you knew more about Forensic Science than all of the world's experts. Dream on Fishy. The Cadosch thread shows that the vast majority accept him as a reliable witness too. The science kills your childish arguments. But of course you still claim that Dr Phillips had magical powers......except when he stated categorically that Chapman was killed where she was found of course and at around 5.25

Knight is contemptible, laughable drivel and everyone apart from you knows it.

Eddowes was killed where she was found, like the rest of the victims of the solitary serial killer Jack the Ripper.

You cannot debate like an adult. You have been caught out in so many lies it’s become embarrassing. You duck questions, try to change the subject, answer different questions apart from the ones you were asked, make points and then refuse the opportunity to back them up. You claim I’ve said things and when I’ve proved that I haven’t you go on to make the same claims again. You claim things as fact that no one can possibly know. And you cling to a theory that no one else believes in as if it’s credible.

Not exactly a shining record is it.

If you put as much effort into debating logically and fairly as you do into avoiding debate and making things up you might get taken seriously.but you don’t....so you aren’t. I can’t recall you ever making a serious, well thought out post. Ever.

[FISHY1118]

Your’e hardly a cause for sympathy Fishy. I try to stay within the bounds of reason. You believe in a theory that belongs on the shelves beside the flat earth books.

No need to bang your head though. All you need to do is to give up on your Stephen Knight fixation and come to the conclusion that the rest of ripperology did 40 years ago. You’ll feel much better for it.

Bounds of reason ?..... Hmmmmm i dont think so . You must mean a different knight, not the one that wrote the final solution . Indeed FINAL

[FISHY1118]

Fishy, it’s obvious that we are never going to agree on this. The main thing that I cannot understand is why you are so passionate to defend the Knight/Sickert story? So passionate that you are willing to turn a blind eye to facts that would scupper any other theory. If someone proposed a theory like the following would you or anyone defend it?:

A story where a person’s religion is central to the story but the writer got her religion wrong. Where the writer had her living in a building that didn’t exist at the time. He states that this woman and another were one and the same but the evidence clearly shows that they weren’t. He has an artist living at a studio that didn’t exist at the time and he has the woman taken to a hospital that didn’t exist at the time. He then describes an accident as being connected but the evidence shows that it wasn’t. Not only this but he has the Queens Physician involved, who was a 71 year old recovering stroke victim, mutilating East End prostitutes in a carriage with two other men carrying the corpse around to dump it in some public place. And part of the evidence used to support this is an obviously forged Abberline diary.

Can you be surprised when someone says - hold on, this sounds slightly unbelievable.

Good to see your on the right track , you just have your facts all round the wrong way . But hey if thats the way u want to interpret them fine go ahead . However many others know differently and ive already explained them to you . I have you on Chapman T.O.D and Eddowes being killed elsewhere. Enough said.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Enjoying your post packers , been down this road myself , but for some i feel to often.

Your’e hardly a cause for sympathy Fishy. I try to stay within the bounds of reason. You believe in a theory that belongs on the shelves beside the flat earth books.

No need to bang your head though. All you need to do is to give up on your Stephen Knight fixation and come to the conclusion that the rest of ripperology did 40 years ago. Immerse yourself in reason and common sense. Ditch the mysterious coachman and your Freemasonic Chuckle Brothers carrying mutilated corpses around the East End and your non-existent buildings and your geriatric mutilators and your fake diary and you’ll feel much better for it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I presume you believe the Whitehall torso was killed in situ as the 'fantasy' of two men carrying the torso across plank gangways must be too much to cope with?

That was a packaged torso. Eddowes wasn’t. No comparison.

Any evidence that Eddowes was killed in situ that you would care to point out? A smidgen would do... .

Those that were there at the time believed that she was and there is no evidence to the contrary.

Those guarding whoever was locked away at bishopsgate would be creatures of habit ... locals would have known .

An assumption on your part. No evidence for it of course.

If you're as drunk as she portrayed, and as tired as she should have been after waking 35 miles in a day earlier that week then once asleep she'd have been out for the count .

Another sweeping statement. How can you possibly know this? Recovery times vary from person to person.

She had a bed for the night .... why would she want to go out, she had nowhere to go, no money.....

Again, you are injecting mystery into a gap in our knowledge and for no good reason. How do you know that she had nowhere to go? Do you know everyone that she ever associated with? How do you know that she didn’t have another man who lived nearby and she was looking to borrow money?

Yet she virtually begged to leave, then walked the opposite direction to the lodging house

You don’t know why she headed toward Mitre Court anymore than I or anyone else does. And so if we don’t know why she headed in that direction we cannot assume anything sinister.

As usual at the end.... you want a story ... a story you can attempt to pick apart.

Im sorry but you’re the one that’s making up a story by inventing mystery.

Sorry to disappoint you

I’m getting used to it.

There doesn't HAVE to be a fixed theory to recognise the smell of bull**it ..... and that smell is everywhere through this series of murders.

No there isn’t. There’s only the smell of desperation to be the genius that spots the pattern that no one else sees. So many series of murders of women over the years - how many of them turned out to have been conspiracies and how many turned out to be the work of some maniac?

Recognising the issues is number one .

Or imagining them apparently.

Once you do ,then you can look at why ,the who doesn't matter much

We can have a very good stab at why. Hatred, sex, perversion, deep psychological issues.....the usual stuff that drives serial killers to do what they do.

Again you appear reluctant to flesh out your theory? Why is this?

[FISHY1118]

Enjoying your post packers , been down this road myself , but for some i feel to often.

[packers stem]

Firstly, i have no fantasy theory regarding Druitt as a suspect. He was mentioned by a very senior police officer who would have had access to rather more information than you or I. His Memorandum might be inconvenient but it exists. It has to be considered and should not be dismissed out of hand.

On the subject of drunkenness and what Eddowes might or might not have done I’d simply ask why do some consider it valid to assume that they know how she should or might have behaved? Who knows what was in her mind? Who knows why she ended up in Mitre Square? It's illogical to assume something sinister just because we don’t possess an alternative explanation. Do we know every single one of her acquaintances? Perhaps she was intending to visit someone who might have lent her a few pence? This is prime conspiracy thinking. The ripperological equivalent of the-god-of-the-gaps. We don’t know something so let’s drop in a fantasy.

No I don’t know who Collard was out visiting. You could simply tell me.

Did police stations have regular release times? I’m not saying that they didn’t just that I wasn’t aware that they did. And even if they did they still couldn't have known for certain when Catherine would have sobered up sufficiently to have been released.

There really is no point in going on about light. No one at the time questioned whether she had been killed in situ. No one appears to have questioned whether it was too dark or not and why do you assume no medical knowledge?

The idea of two men carrying a body as fantasy is exactly what it is. An utterly baseless invention. Again you have provided not a scintilla of solid evidence. If you are so confident that this was a conspiracy (and you’re obviously not entirely alone on this) I can’t understand why no one appears to have the courage of their convictions and come out and say exactly what they think occurred and who was involved? There appears to be a lack of confidence here hidden behind hints and nudges. I’m quite happy to say what I believe happened. Why aren’t you?

I presume you believe the Whitehall torso was killed in situ as the 'fantasy' of two men carrying the torso across plank gangways must be too much to cope with?
Any evidence that Eddowes was killed in situ that you would care to point out? A smidgen would do... .

Those guarding whoever was locked away at bishopsgate would be creatures of habit ... locals would have known .
If you're as drunk as she portrayed, and as tired as she should have been after waking 35 miles in a day earlier that week then once asleep she'd have been out for the count .
She had a bed for the night .... why would she want to go out, she had nowhere to go, no money.....
Yet she virtually begged to leave, then walked the opposite direction to the lodging house

As usual at the end.... you want a story ... a story you can attempt to pick apart.
Sorry to disappoint you
There doesn't HAVE to be a fixed theory to recognise the smell of bull**it ..... and that smell is everywhere through this series of murders.

Recognising the issues is number one .
Once you do ,then you can look at why ,the who doesn't matter much

[packers stem]

Conspiracy/cover up by the state through the killing of East End prostitutes is an extremely unlikely solution. The reason provided by Stephen Knight would be plausible, but struggling to think of anything else that might come close. Even though a potential reason to motivate State killings of prostitutes is provided by Mr Knight, there is no evidence it is true and of course the rest of the theory suggested by Knight has not stood up to scrutiny. So although a plausible reason, the JtR murders is not the way it would have been executed had it been true.

Don't presume it to be 'the state'

Think of the political climate
Think of the locations

[Herlock Sholmes]

The evidence is there ...... in bucket loads ,rather more than a smidgen but as you have your own fantasy regarding a teacher on the rampage you will refuse it .
Drunk ?
Next time you're so drunk you need to be carried home let me know if you wake up singing and asking to wander around in the rain four hours later .
As hers was allegedly the first stomach to be checked for narcotics, I don't think I'm the first one not to swallow that .
Kelly told Wilkinson that she had been locked up an hour before the fire engine impression .
They both would have been well aware of regular release times from city police stations don't you think?
Do you know who Collard was 'out visiting' at this time ?
The evidence you refuse to accept is the lighting , maybe he had night vision goggles because the light was so poor 40 mins earlier and three quarters of a mile away that matches were being lit just to confirm they actually found a body...... and there were house lights in that yard unlike Mitre Square with it's deficient lamp.
Halse requested a lamp be directed towards her so he could confirm it was indeed a body in Mitre Square.
Morris told Watkins to wait while he fetched his lamp, he knew how little light there was in that corner.
You want to believe in a crazy with no medical knowledge and no lamp carrying out the virtually impossible and describe two men carrying a body as 'fantasy' .....

There is no evidence she was killed where found.
Little blood, mixing with rain on wet pavements, the neck wound would still ooze blood ,if you doubt this check out the Pinchin Street inquest.

Firstly, i have no fantasy theory regarding Druitt as a suspect. He was mentioned by a very senior police officer who would have had access to rather more information than you or I. His Memorandum might be inconvenient but it exists. It has to be considered and should not be dismissed out of hand.

On the subject of drunkenness and what Eddowes might or might not have done I’d simply ask why do some consider it valid to assume that they know how she should or might have behaved? Who knows what was in her mind? Who knows why she ended up in Mitre Square? It's illogical to assume something sinister just because we don’t possess an alternative explanation. Do we know every single one of her acquaintances? Perhaps she was intending to visit someone who might have lent her a few pence? This is prime conspiracy thinking. The ripperological equivalent of the-god-of-the-gaps. We don’t know something so let’s drop in a fantasy.

No I don’t know who Collard was out visiting. You could simply tell me.

Did police stations have regular release times? I’m not saying that they didn’t just that I wasn’t aware that they did. And even if they did they still couldn't have known for certain when Catherine would have sobered up sufficiently to have been released.

There really is no point in going on about light. No one at the time questioned whether she had been killed in situ. No one appears to have questioned whether it was too dark or not and why do you assume no medical knowledge?

The idea of two men carrying a body as fantasy is exactly what it is. An utterly baseless invention. Again you have provided not a scintilla of solid evidence. If you are so confident that this was a conspiracy (and you’re obviously not entirely alone on this) I can’t understand why no one appears to have the courage of their convictions and come out and say exactly what they think occurred and who was involved? There appears to be a lack of confidence here hidden behind hints and nudges. I’m quite happy to say what I believe happened. Why aren’t you?

[etenguy]

Accepted Eten. For me it’s just far more difficult to see one involving East End prostitutes.

Conspiracy/cover up by the state through the killing of East End prostitutes is an extremely unlikely solution. The reason provided by Stephen Knight would be plausible, but struggling to think of anything else that might come close. Even though a potential reason to motivate State killings of prostitutes is provided by Mr Knight, there is no evidence it is true and of course the rest of the theory suggested by Knight has not stood up to scrutiny. So although a plausible reason, the JtR murders is not the way it would have been executed had it been true.

[packers stem]

There isn’t a smidgeon evidence for this fantasy of course. Catherine was in a police station for drunkenness. No one knew when she would have been released. She walked toward Mitre Square, bumped into her killer, and was murdered in the square. It’s very simple. Annie Chapman was killed in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at around 5.25-5.30. Even Phillips stated that she was definitely killed where she was found. The police concurred.

You are simply creating a scenario which you believe fits the facts. It’s a work of imagination, and whilst imagination is important, it shouldn’t override common-sense.

The evidence is there ...... in bucket loads ,rather more than a smidgen but as you have your own fantasy regarding a teacher on the rampage you will refuse it .
Drunk ?
Next time you're so drunk you need to be carried home let me know if you wake up singing and asking to wander around in the rain four hours later .
As hers was allegedly the first stomach to be checked for narcotics, I don't think I'm the first one not to swallow that .
Kelly told Wilkinson that she had been locked up an hour before the fire engine impression .
They both would have been well aware of regular release times from city police stations don't you think?
Do you know who Collard was 'out visiting' at this time ?
The evidence you refuse to accept is the lighting , maybe he had night vision goggles because the light was so poor 40 mins earlier and three quarters of a mile away that matches were being lit just to confirm they actually found a body...... and there were house lights in that yard unlike Mitre Square with it's deficient lamp.
Halse requested a lamp be directed towards her so he could confirm it was indeed a body in Mitre Square.
Morris told Watkins to wait while he fetched his lamp, he knew how little light there was in that corner.
You want to believe in a crazy with no medical knowledge and no lamp carrying out the virtually impossible and describe two men carrying a body as 'fantasy' .....

There is no evidence she was killed where found.
Little blood, mixing with rain on wet pavements, the neck wound would still ooze blood ,if you doubt this check out the Pinchin Street inquest.

[packers stem]

Accepted Eten. For me it’s just far more difficult to see one involving East End prostitutes.

It does surprise me that you accept that tbh