Coincidence?

[DJA]

Syncope (medicine) - Wikipedia

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
Yes, a quantity could mean anything but as it was just by the shoulder and neck its not going very far .
Unfortunately all we have is a sketch of a sketch made where the original was made in the dark .

I'm basing things on his inquest testimony, not the sketch, or sketch of sketch, which would be more open to concern.

So we have to look to the other side of the neck .
Browns claim that this was blood serum needs to be taken with the fact that it had been raining ,

Brown says nothing about rain. That was my concern.

the pavement sloped , there were gutters from the buildings which could be releasing water and that the trail doesn't even appeared to reach the road .

The flow of gutter water is not as far as I'm aware documented anywhere? We do know it was raining for a brief time around 1:30 as that is Lawende's testimony, and that it was heavy enough that they didn't leave the club, but apart from that ...

He was going by the light of a bullseye lantern .
It all indicates very little blood .

I would disagree. The description sounds similar to Stride's case.

Which of the empty houses do you have evidence of a search for blood having taken place?

I'm pretty sure it's documented that they searched the area and surrounding buildings, however, fair call, I can't put my finger on the source for that right now. Hopefully someone can chime in and either correct me or verify such a thing is recorded in the existing material.

The one in my mind has a shutter a yard from where the body was found.
The yards were searched at the time ( in the dark ) for a person in hiding, not for anything else.

Could you provide the source for that "not anything else" please?

The lack of an imagined blood trail is neither an inconvenience nor evidence of anything at all .

The lack of evidence for a blood trail is just that, no evidence to support a blood trail, which is what one would expect to find if a body such as Eddowes' was moved.

a lack of evidence is not evidence of something else .
For example, in Pinchin Street they found no evidence of cart tracks or footprints. This is not evidence of the torso falling from the sky.

Cart tracks on a paved road are a bit harder to see than a trail of blood from an eviscerated corpse.

I suspect you are picturing a single person carrying a dead body over his shoulder which is not what is being suggested.

No, I thought you were describing two people carrying her, one at shoulders one at legs type thing.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Syncope doesn't mean being strangled; it means loss of consciousness due to the failure of the heart's action. Dr Phillips said that the cause of death was syncope brought about by the blood lost when Annie's throat was cut. As the quote you supplied says: "death arose from syncope... in consequence of the loss of blood caused by the severance of the throat". Any suffocation or strangulation happened before death ("breathing was interfered with before death") and, whilst it rendered Annie insensible, it didn't kill her.

Thanks for clearing that one up Sam

As I think that Annie and her killer were more likely to have been standing nearer to where Annie’s feet eventually were might it not have been possible that the killer rendered Annie unconscious and lowered her to the ground by the shoulders. This might have meant that the killer found himself kneeling behind Annie’s head. He could then have cut Annie’s throat in that position thus giving the same effect as if he’d cut her throat from behind whilst standing up. Wouldn’t this at least cast doubt on whether the killer was left or right handed? He might have been ambidextrous of course.

I have no set idea or bias toward left or right handed just for the record.

[DJA]

There was blood spray on the wall behind Chapman's head.

[packers stem]

Hi Packers Stem

Surely if someone eviscerated poor Kate in one of the empty houses, there would be significant amounts of blood in that house. While they may not have looked in that house that evening, at some later date the blood would be noticed, even if completely dried. Given that the murder was common knowledge at the time, someone would surely have reported it.

If I understand your suggestion, Kate was killed in an empty house, mutilated and eviscerated. Then all would be placed back in the body to carry it to the spot where Kate was found and then the intestines removed again and placed over her shoulder. All without spilling blood on the way. Why would the murderer do this? He had no problem leaving Mary Jane Kelly in the house he murdered her in?

Also, what prompts you to think this is even a likely scenario? Is it simply to allow the murderer more time? Do you discount the sighting of Kate by those leaving the club?

Think of it as a 'safe house' and not 'the murderer'

The couple seen by Lawende ,Harris and Levy could have been absolutely anyone .
Their actions do not suggest a prostitute and client, that's for sure..... chatting quietly ,hand on chest

[packers stem]

You beat me to it. Chapman was initially strangled, there's no way her throat was cut whilst she was standing

No real evidence that anyone was strangled
People have pointed to the protruding tongue on Chapman but other things can cause swelling .
I would suggest it's quite possible that she was allergic to her meds, slurring her speech and making others think she was drunk, when we know she'd drunk no alcohol

[packers stem]

I'm basing things on his inquest testimony, not the sketch, or sketch of sketch, which would be more open to concern.

Brown says nothing about rain. That was my concern.

The flow of gutter water is not as far as I'm aware documented anywhere? We do know it was raining for a brief time around 1:30 as that is Lawende's testimony, and that it was heavy enough that they didn't leave the club, but apart from that ...

I would disagree. The description sounds similar to Stride's case.

I'm pretty sure it's documented that they searched the area and surrounding buildings, however, fair call, I can't put my finger on the source for that right now. Hopefully someone can chime in and either correct me or verify such a thing is recorded in the existing material.

Could you provide the source for that "not anything else" please?

The lack of evidence for a blood trail is just that, no evidence to support a blood trail, which is what one would expect to find if a body such as Eddowes' was moved.

Cart tracks on a paved road are a bit harder to see than a trail of blood from an eviscerated corpse.


No, I thought you were describing two people carrying her, one at shoulders one at legs type thing.

- Jeff

Collard clearly meant the area was searched for the perpetrator.... the first place would have been the yards.

Morning advertiser 5th

When I got to the square I took immediate steps to have the neighbourhood searched for the person who committed the murder.

The backs of the empty houses adjoining were searched.

You can't put your finger on them searching buildings because they didn't. They made house to house enquiries asking people if they heard anything, that's possibly where you're getting mixed up.

I will ask that you please don't split your posts to me in that way .
Its tedious as I can only see your response and not my initial comment

What this boils down to is your presumption of a trail of blood, for which there is no evidence that it would be the case as we can't know that all layers of clothing had been saturated at the point of transit
As for the rain ,just because Brown didn't mention that it had been raining , it doesn't mean it hadn't..... it had been raining on and off all evening, thought we all knew this .
Rain ,buildings with gutters, sloping pavement..... I need say no more , I'm out of this discussion with that .....

[c.d.]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

[Blotchy's Beer Bucket]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

Whats the lesser of the two evils?
An abandoned House or the Darkest Corner of a dingy square?

[c.d.]

Whats the lesser of the two evils?
An abandoned House or the Darkest Corner of a dingy square?

Hello B.B.B.,

Welcome to the boards.

I would say the corner of a dingy square where you would at least have some opportunity to run or yell for help plus you don't have to look over your shoulder for rats.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Collard clearly meant the area was searched for the perpetrator.... the first place would have been the yards.

Morning advertiser 5th

When I got to the square I took immediate steps to have the neighbourhood searched for the person who committed the murder.

The backs of the empty houses adjoining were searched.

You can't put your finger on them searching buildings because they didn't. They made house to house enquiries asking people if they heard anything, that's possibly where you're getting mixed up.

I will ask that you please don't split your posts to me in that way .
Its tedious as I can only see your response and not my initial comment

What this boils down to is your presumption of a trail of blood, for which there is no evidence that it would be the case as we can't know that all layers of clothing had been saturated at the point of transit
As for the rain ,just because Brown didn't mention that it had been raining , it doesn't mean it hadn't..... it had been raining on and off all evening, thought we all knew this .
Rain ,buildings with gutters, sloping pavement..... I need say no more , I'm out of this discussion with that .....

Hi,

Could be I'm misremembering a house to house check, or I may be thinking of a search that took place in the Stride case. Regardless, have a look at any crime scene photo where the victim was stabbed and then moved. There's blood everywhere. Knife crimes are very messy, and when the body is moved there is a trail of blood. And if you carry a body with the throat cut, the blood doesn't need to soak through the 4 layers over the chest and abdomen. It's not presuming there would be a blood trail, there would have to be one to suggest she was carried there. There wasn't, so she wasn't.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

Hi,

Could be I'm misremembering a house to house check, or I may be thinking of a search that took place in the Stride case. Regardless, have a look at any crime scene photo where the victim was stabbed and then moved. There's blood everywhere. Knife crimes are very messy, and when the body is moved there is a trail of blood. And if you carry a body with the throat cut, the blood doesn't need to soak through the 4 layers over the chest and abdomen. It's not presuming there would be a blood trail, there would have to be one to suggest she was carried there. There wasn't, so she wasn't.

- Jeff

We'll disagree Jeff

[packers stem]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

You need to get beyond prostitute and client in your thought process .
Theres no evidence whatsoever that Eddowes ever prostituted herself

[JeffHamm]

We'll disagree Jeff

No worries, that's the nature of discussions on pretty much all things JtR related.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

There was blood spray on the wall behind Chapman's head.

So again if the killer was between Chapman head and the wall when he cut her throat , how did the blood get there.?

Better still why start from behind her head kneeling to cut her throat only to move to the left or right side to start the mutilation process side .?

The evidence\ suggest that she was rendered unconscious , lowered to the ground and had her throat cut from that position while the killer was on the right side of her body , thus continuing the mutilation also from that position without the need to move around the body doing cartwheels kicking fences as some would have us believe .