Mary Jane Violence

[Sam Flynn]

Why, as Prosector observed, would a murder worry about being able to sew up the stomach? If this "navel-wiggle" was ingrained in the killer's nature, why didn't he employ it in the other evisceration murders? Was it a true circumvention of the navel, or a byproduct of joining together two cuts that weren't particluarly well-aligned?

When I google "incision around the navel", by far the greatest number of hits are about umbilical hernia repair and tummy-tucks. When did this procedure become standard, whether as a surgical procedure or for autopsies?

[Fisherman]

Couldn't agree more .
The late Nick Warren who was also both ripperologist and practicing surgeon was equally sure .

Let's not forget ,in the case of Eddowes , removing the uterus without piercing the bladder

And in Chapmans case, removing the uterus and cutting the bladder open. Letīs remember that too, least we want to be called cherrypicking. Furthermore, the killer did not remove Eddowes uterus, he removed part of it: "The womb was cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch."

Before we make a call of superior skill and anatomical/surgical insights, it is important that we have the whole picture.

[DJA]

Posted 12 Feb last year by Varqm,not me.

2.36am and being lazy.

[packers stem]

I have been reading some of Prosectors's posts and it's interesting.Prosector had experience "I have operated on the abdomen many hundreds of times".
All quoted text from Prosector.

It seems JTR nedded to know how to a) severe the intestines from their mesenteric attachments (Chapman,Eddowes),not to "cause the abdominal cavity to fill with liquid small bowel content,lift the small intestines out of the abdomen so he could have a clear field" in (b) removing the uterus (Chapman,Eddowes),c) "deliberately removed a section of the descending colon in order to get direct access to the left kidney" (Eddowes), d) Invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum (Eddowes),"done to stop faeces, which is largely stored in the sigmoid and rectum", "from oozing back into the abdominal cavity",e) possibly the choosing of the left kidney instead of the right (Eddowes), researching why the left kidney not the right,it's mostly used today for kidney transplant because the left renal vein is longer,easier to cut and "sew back in".

Couldn't agree more .
The late Nick Warren who was also both ripperologist and practicing surgeon was equally sure .

Let's not forget ,in the case of Eddowes , removing the uterus without piercing the bladder

[DJA]

I have been reading some of Prosectors's posts and it's interesting.Prosector had experience "I have operated on the abdomen many hundreds of times".
All quoted text from Prosector.

It seems JTR nedded to know how to a) severe the intestines from their mesenteric attachments (Chapman,Eddowes),not to "cause the abdominal cavity to fill with liquid small bowel content,lift the small intestines out of the abdomen so he could have a clear field" in (b) removing the uterus (Chapman,Eddowes),c) "deliberately removed a section of the descending colon in order to get direct access to the left kidney" (Eddowes), d) Invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum (Eddowes),"done to stop faeces, which is largely stored in the sigmoid and rectum", "from oozing back into the abdominal cavity",e) possibly the choosing of the left kidney instead of the right (Eddowes), researching why the left kidney not the right,it's mostly used today for kidney transplant because the left renal vein is longer,easier to cut and "sew back in".

[DJA]

Hi Cogidubnus

This is an interesting point and I don't think anyone has ever commented on it before. When medical students, pathologists or surgeons open an abdomen using a midline incision they always skirt round the umbilicus to the right. Even if they are naturally left handed it is always to the right. The reason that the umbilicus is avoided is that it is a very tough and fibrous structure. When it comes to sewing up at the end of the operation or autopsy it is very difficult to stitch through the umbilical tissues. Of course Jack wasn't going to sew up afterwards but it seems to have been embedded somewhere in his psyche.

I remember once assisting a surgeon who decided to go round the umbilicus to the left just for the Hell of it. There was a shocked silence in the theatre and the scrub nurse nearly walked out. It is regarded as terribly bad form and bad luck to deviate round it to the left. As far as I know that holds true the world over. So where had he learned to do that?

Incidentally, as far as I know, butchers never bother, they go right down the midline since they are not going to be sewing up afterwards.

Prosector

(Dr Wynne Weston Davies,a senior surgeon).

[Michael W Richards]

Yep.

Arrogance would possibly be a better word.

Given the evidence before them at Mitre Square,a cover up is likely.

Lack of blood spray,the length of colon,kidney extraction,the expert diversion around the navel ......

When lies and incompetence are rampant,it's difficult to differentiate.

Sorry, expert division around the navel? Its one of the features that surely discounts anyone with skill. As does, in what appears to be an error because it served no other purpose, a 2 ft colon section cut off with feces in it.

[Fisherman]

Couldn't help but notice, a person named Edward GINGERICH was a paranoid schizophrenic who killed his wife in 1993.

He was so ill that he was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and released 5 years and one day after the event.

Not sure what point you are trying ot make here, or even if you are trying to make any point at all. Can you help out, please?

[Michael W Richards]

Going out on a limb here and please feel free to shoot me down but could it have been a bit of professional jealousy/pride in that only a person with surgical skill could remove organs, that there is no way a average person would be able to do something like that?

Tristan

I understand the question Tristan, and in my opinion, I doubt that factored in here. The fact that the killer in some cases seems to have quickly eviscerated and extracted organs, in near darkness, might have...I want to say impressed..the physicians who examined the women. The 3 that come to mind would be Polly, Annie and Kate. That's also my own personal Canonical Group. But these were cases of such importance at the time the public safety issues weighing on the minds of the investigators must have been in the forefront.

[DJA]

Couldn't help but notice, a person named Edward GINGERICH was a paranoid schizophrenic who killed his wife in 1993.

He was so ill that he was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and released 5 years and one day after the event.

[DJA]

Maybe if you were specifically looking to remove the kidney? Not to say some one in a frenzy couldn't of got his hands in there and pulled something out. Wasn't like he was particularly precise in his cuts and did not appear to follow any surgical procedures?

Tristan

He was following quite strict surgical procedures,rather like he taught them for a living.

Also explains the GSG chalk.

[DJA]

Going out on a limb here and please feel free to shoot me down but could it have been a bit of professional jealousy/pride in that only a person with surgical skill could remove organs, that there is no way a average person would be able to do something like that?

Tristan

Yep.

Arrogance would possibly be a better word.

Given the evidence before them at Mitre Square,a cover up is likely.

Lack of blood spray,the length of colon,kidney extraction,the expert diversion around the navel ......

When lies and incompetence are rampant,it's difficult to differentiate.

[Losmandris]

Given the amount of information on these boards,I genuinely did not know where to start at 12.31am.

After opening the abdominal cavity and removing part of the descending and traverse colon,one can reach up behind the pancreas and deal with the membrane that hides the kidney.
Once getting through that,the vein,artery and ureter need to be cut before the kidney can be removed.
All this in the darkest corner of Mitre Square.

That's just the kidney.

I really did not believe Sam's post was intelligent or spirited ..... unless you are referring to single malt

Maybe if you were specifically looking to remove the kidney? Not to say some one in a frenzy couldn't of got his hands in there and pulled something out. Wasn't like he was particularly precise in his cuts and did not appear to follow any surgical procedures?

Tristan

[Losmandris]

But that doesn't explain Sam, and this is for Tristan also, why they ...again with that word "specifically", sought out people who did have surgical knowledge... after only Annies murder. You see Im not contending that there was surgical grade skills on all the evisceration murderss, there clearly wasn't. Marys murderer required a knife, that's it. But there was with Annie.

Going out on a limb here and please feel free to shoot me down but could it have been a bit of professional jealousy/pride in that only a person with surgical skill could remove organs, that there is no way a average person would be able to do something like that?

Tristan

[Fisherman]

yes but he had the time and the light available to him and perhaps a text book or two to help him/.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Maybe you did not read what I wrote, Trevor? Gingrich took out all inner organs via a seven inch hole in his wifes abdomen. Once he had shoved his hand through the hole, he worked by feel, not by vision. And none of the organs was a light bulb. Plus he did what he did double quick too, during a sudden rage.

In comparison, what the Ripper did to Eddowes was a walk in the park.