Mary Jane Violence

[Errata]

That's the Grade 1 interpretation Damaso Im afraid,.. for one....that doesn't explain the evidence that suggests she knew the person intimately, that presupposes that he ever wanted to work indoors or do more damage, neither are supported anywhere in any known evidence,... and lastly, and most dangerously, it presumes we know that Marys killer killed prior, outdoor venue, Canonicals. The fact that we have zero evidence linking any of these women to one killer should be the standard here, always puzzled why an assumed series of Five is a preference despite that.

I always thought that barring the fact that it would mean there’s another postmortem mutilator, that it’s very much what it would look like if a stalker finally got hold of his victim who rejected him in the era of the Ripper. The heart clearly has significance, the breasts, lips, and pubis as well. Once you wrap all that up, why not empty her? Everyone knows there’s a Ripper out there.

[Michael W Richards]

Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I have always thought the simplest explanation for MJK's murder being so much bloodier is simply because being indoors afforded the killer more time and security.

That's the Grade 1 interpretation Damaso Im afraid,.. for one....that doesn't explain the evidence that suggests she knew the person intimately, that presupposes that he ever wanted to work indoors or do more damage, neither are supported anywhere in any known evidence,... and lastly, and most dangerously, it presumes we know that Marys killer killed prior, outdoor venue, Canonicals. The fact that we have zero evidence linking any of these women to one killer should be the standard here, always puzzled why an assumed series of Five is a preference despite that.

[Lipsky]

Hello Lipsky,

Don't mean to be snotty but you have a lot of claims in your post. What evidence do you have to support them?

c.d.

Oh, it's ok, many of *my* claims are known to be snotty (as the ex used to say).
Evidence concerning...?

MJK's tenure at a West End brothel is one of the few claims she is alleged to have made, which are confirmed by two sources (one naturally being mr. Barnett).
MJK's parents failing to meet the funeral on time is validated by all newspaper reports.
McCarthy's claim that he had received a letter from her mother has not been confirmed by hard evidence, therefore falls under the "potential BS" category.
As all her "family background" info -- solely provided by barnett on hearsay.
MJK probably invented herself -- nothing surprising here. But it hardly makes a case of a random/innocent victim.
McCarthy acting as indirect pimp --- I don't know many "professional" landlords allowing their tenants to fall "conveniently" way way behnd on their rent, unless other "Services" are provided. And god knows MJK did provide service to many.
Two major landlords resided/acted in that area --- both of their lodgings have been linked to canonical and pre-canonical attacks/murders.
I find that too glaring of a coincidence to pass by -- as too many others in this case whom some simply brush off as "random"/coincidences.

Two things are for certain:
1. There are no coincidences in serial killers ' cases.
2. This is a world where nothing is ever solved (Rust Cohle yeah).

[Michael W Richards]

Would it be likely that the police would have covered much of Mary's body up before letting Barnett see her, leaving only the face visible?

Although a quote exists that says Barnett saw her from the window while in the room, I doubt that myself. When she was taken to the mortuary to, in effect, rebuild the corpse, she was placed in a box with cloth covering all but her head, or perhaps just her face. She was seen by other people in that state, I would assume that Barnett also saw her in that fashion.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Would it be likely that the police would have covered much of Mary's body up before letting Barnett see her, leaving only the face visible?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sure he recognised lots more (her hands, her feet, a mole/birthmark here and there... whatever) but was only required to name a subset "for the record" at the inquest.

Despite her horrendous wounds, the mere act of seeing a person of the same build and height as Mary Kelly, lying on the bed in Mary Kelly's room, would have been enough to identify the deceased. I'd suggest that the "hair/ear and eyes" bit was just a formality.

I think I would prefer you said "he could have recognized" more Sam, because its likely he only saw her face anyway.

[Sam Flynn]

Barnett admittedly could identify only 2 features on a woman he has been sleeping with until a few days earlier..

I'm sure he recognised lots more (her hands, her feet, a mole/birthmark here and there... whatever) but was only required to name a subset "for the record" at the inquest.

Despite her horrendous wounds, the mere act of seeing a person of the same build and height as Mary Kelly, lying on the bed in Mary Kelly's room, would have been enough to identify the deceased. I'd suggest that the "hair/ear and eyes" bit was just a formality.

[Michael W Richards]

Martha Tabram's face wasn't wounded at all, and yet there was great difficulty in establishing her identity too.

Echo 10 Aug;

"No crime more brutal has ever been committed in the East-end," said a Criminal Investigation officer, this morning, "than the one at George-yard-buildings." The murder to which allusion was made was that of the young woman found in a block of model dwellings in Whitechapel-road, with thirty-nine stabs on her body-one over her heart, and others of a nature too revolting to name is now supposed to be Martha Turner but of this nothing positive is yet known, for, strange to say, no less than four persons, of different families, have come forward and positively identified the deceased, and are apparently ready to swear as to the accuracy of their assertions. The woman's features are rapidly changing from post-mortem appearances. As soon as she was discovered the police had a photograph taken of her body, but the features were so distorted-possibly by an agonizing death-that some difficulty was at first experienced by her supposed friends in accurately recognizing her. A man, who declares the deceased is his sister, not only recognizes her face, but also asserts the boots belonging to her were those he had seen the murdered woman wearing."

Fine Josh, but as the article says it was because of her distorted features in death, it had no reference to her face being intentionally stabbed or marked. Again, unlike Mary. Or Kate.

[Joshua Rogan]

Martha Tabram's face wasn't wounded at all, and yet there was great difficulty in establishing her identity too.

Echo 10 Aug;

"No crime more brutal has ever been committed in the East-end," said a Criminal Investigation officer, this morning, "than the one at George-yard-buildings." The murder to which allusion was made was that of the young woman found in a block of model dwellings in Whitechapel-road, with thirty-nine stabs on her body-one over her heart, and others of a nature too revolting to name is now supposed to be Martha Turner but of this nothing positive is yet known, for, strange to say, no less than four persons, of different families, have come forward and positively identified the deceased, and are apparently ready to swear as to the accuracy of their assertions. The woman's features are rapidly changing from post-mortem appearances. As soon as she was discovered the police had a photograph taken of her body, but the features were so distorted-possibly by an agonizing death-that some difficulty was at first experienced by her supposed friends in accurately recognizing her. A man, who declares the deceased is his sister, not only recognizes her face, but also asserts the boots belonging to her were those he had seen the murdered woman wearing."

[Michael W Richards]

There were problems identifying Eddowes
check out the woman from Rotherhithe who incorrectly identified her as her sister.

That anomaly also happens in Liz Strides case, so a precedent for incorrect identifications happens on the very same night. I suppose I meant that in her case the person who was closest to her at that time had no issues ID'ing her as his Kate. Barnett admittedly could identify only 2 features on a woman he has been sleeping with until a few days earlier. That's the contrast Im referring to, Mary was almost unrecognizable, Kate wasn't. Kate was marked, Marys face was slashed to such an extent that a flap of her forehead covered her eyes.

[John Wheat]

Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I have always thought the simplest explanation for MJK's murder being so much bloodier is simply because being indoors afforded the killer more time and security.

I agree Damaso and I'd wager a number of others agree with your explanation.

[John Wheat]

Excellent point. Indeed, a number of non-canonical murders are, by some consensus, not likely to have been perpetrated by Jack the Ripper, so I don't see why some people get hung up on them.

Thanks Sam. I agree a number of the Whitechapel murders outside the C5 are unlikely have been committed by Jack.

[John Wheat]

hey john
as you know bury is one of my favored suspects for the ripper. however, if he wasnt the ripper then he wasnt a postmortem mutilator in the same city as torsoman, as he did that to his wife in scotland and of course isnt a serial killer either like torsoman.

Fair point Abby.

[Damaso Marte]

Perhaps I am a simpleton, but I have always thought the simplest explanation for MJK's murder being so much bloodier is simply because being indoors afforded the killer more time and security.

[Sam Flynn]

There were atleast two post mortem mutilators in London at the time. William Henry Bury was a post mortem mutilator whether you believe he was the Ripper or not

Excellent point. Indeed, a number of non-canonical murders are, by some consensus, not likely to have been perpetrated by Jack the Ripper, so I don't see why some people get hung up on them.