Was Jack enraged by watching soliciting

[richardnunweek]

Hi Bridewell,
I hate to admit it but the observer possibly seen by Lewis[ Mrs] apparently watching the court, does indeed fit the Hutchinson mode..
Oh dear surely not...
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

So why were there only 5 killings attributed to Jack at a time when prostitution was rife in the East end? If it's just prostitution that sets him off,given the ample opportunity he had why were there not more killings or assaults?

The "demon drink" was blamed for a lot of life's misfortunes in the 19th century, including the descent into a life of prostitution. Perhaps it was the stereotypical "fallen woman seduced by drink" which enraged the killer.
If JtR was a 'watcher' those who believe Hutchinson was the killer will be greatly encouraged.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Phil H]

Wasn't a theory advanced on Casebook about six to eight months ago, which proposed that Jack robbed the victims at knife point, before murdering them. Hence Annie placed all her possessions neatly on the ground. I seem to recall it was all part of an humiliation "ritual".

It might fit with your hypothesis.

Polly probably didn't have any money other than what she expected from her client. Annie may also have been skint. He was disturbed in the case of Stride (if Jack killed her). Eddowes was supposedly penniless. Kelly's money (again assuming Jack was responsible) was presumably somewhere "safe" as she had laid aside her clothing neatly. He might have taken that.

Incidentally - do you think that the two cheap rings found among Tumblety's possessions after his death, were Annie's - were they taken from her as part of a robbery? Or as reminders? fetish objects?

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
The enraged theory still applies, it just adds the robbery as another MO, If it was his tactic to observe a soliciting act, that happened to be in a secluded place, and then moved in after the client had left, removing the wages of sin, along with their life.
I was just giving a alternative view to the murderous punter..
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

We're getting away from the "enraged" theory though, aren't we? According to your theory, the first thing he did after cutting their throats was to search for their money.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
How long does it take to rake through a persons pockets, even if robbery was indeed a added factor?.
Maybe my ''observer '' theory was Robbery induced, watch a sexual business, then remove the wages of sin , along with portions of the body.
A real unpleasant person our Jack..
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Richard, if we take the Stride interruption theory, then he would not have had time to rob her, surely? So where was the money she is supposed to have earnt?

Errata, yes the actual mutilations don't seem to me to have been carried out in a frenzy. Things are placed rather neatly around the bodies.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil,
The Darrell/Long sighting actual fits well, in with a service in the backyard, an exit by her client, and a possible entry by the killer, and a surprised Chapman, and the thud.
I agree that the absence of any ''secretions'' does not mean that none were present.
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

We can't be certain exactly what the police found in Kelly's room, but it seems reasonable to assume that no money was found on or by any of the victims. It would be odd if Jack managed to rob all of them, given the fact that prostitutes would have been well used to being frisked by thugs and pimps and doubtless had their hiding places for their takings. So then we will be forced to bring in assumptions such as that they were bilked by their last customers, or that the mortuary attendants pinched the money. It just doesn't ring true for me.

[Errata]

It strikes me that he may have used either scenario, depending on the environment. The stalking scenario has chancier timing, given that he has to wait long enough for the customer to get out of hearing, but no so long that the woman moves out of the secluded area and onto a busier thoroughfare. But it's not impossible. I just think "enraged" would be a mischaracterization. It implies loss of control, and while that's true to a certain extent, it did not apply to his approach. He certainly never charged in swinging. Anger may have initially chosen the targets, but after that it was the hunt that fueled him.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
It would not be the first time I have tried to force a theory into the wrong shaped hole..
However, lets not forget, that Stride has always been suggested as the killer having being disturbed, so we have to consider the frustration factor.
As for Chapman.
I have her still recovering from having serviced Long's man, and composing herself in the yard, not humming a tune walking back into Hanbury street.
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

Richard: We cannot be certain that anyone saw Chapman with a man. The Darrell/Long sighting has its problems.

On the sexual connexion point - all the locations were suitable for a "bit of business". I don't think Polly went to Bucks Row on her own - thus the implication must be she was with a "client" (or at least thought she was). Whether he ever intended to do more than kill is another question.

I think we have moved away from the old convention that he was behind her and so forth. The absense of any "secretions", which were clearly looked for on the victims even in 1888 - speaks for itself.

Phil H

[Robert]

Hi Richard

But how long is he supposed to have been watching these women for? If you take Stride, if he was watching her the whole evening, then it's strange that someone that patient should fly off the handle at virtually his first sight of Eddowes.

If you take Chapman, she was looking for her doss money. If she had just serviced a customer, wouldn't she have been off to her lodging house? Of course, Jack could have stepped in at the last minute with an offer of an extra "trick," but I get the feeling somehow that the theory is being forced into the wrong shaped hole.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
How would an observer know, if the act had not taken place with Eddowes and sailor man, they were standing close together, with her hand on his chest, if he had not long been close by , and Kate's chap left, maybe at her request, he could have formed that impression.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil,
The reason why I excluded Nichols was nobody actually saw her with anyone, not like Tabram,Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Mary Kelly.
I should add, that in no case was sexual connection present, even with wooden gates or fences to aid.
In the case of poor Polly, if the commotion heard in Brady street was her being ruffed up, then I hardly think that she choose a suitable place for sex, some hundred mitres away..
Regards Richard.