October's London Fog

[Carol]

Hi Carol.

You asked if the photo in post #28 was taken in black & white or color. From the look of it, I think it must have been taken with black & white film.
Did the yellowish cast give everything a sort of sludgy, greasy look? Ick.

I looked for a yellowish photo of thick London fog but didn't see any. Perhaps someone else can locate a good one?

I wonder if the addition of automobiles in the 20th C. changed the color of London's fog/smog to any appreciable extant? Leaded fuel automobile emissions must have been awful combined with coal fire- and as the NPR radio article pointed out, England was using very low-grade coke (coal fuel) in the aftermath of WWII, because the supplies of superior-grade fuel had gone for the war effort.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hi Archaic,

I can't remember that the fog looked greasy, although it had greasy little particles in it.

I'll see if I have a coloured photo of a pea souper fog in one of my books, but somehow I doubt it.

That's a really interesting thought in your last paragraph. I'll see if I can find an 'on the spot' description of a pre-car era pea souper.

Carol

[Carol]

I've only ever heard of green peas in the UK. The only time I've seen any other coloured peas was black ones (cooking error).

Yellow would make sense of the sulphur pollution I guess.

Hi Robert,

Sulphur - of course! Never thought of that, although I've sometimes wondered why the fogs were yellow.

Carol

[Carol]

Hi everyone!

Before I married and came to Sweden I couldn't understand why the pea-souper fogs were yellow. As far as I knew pea soup was green! Like Archaic I assumed it was because they were so thick. Then, as I say, I came to Sweden. Thursday is traditionally 'ärtsoppa dag' (pea soup day). Even in these modern times you can find pea soup available in many cafés and restaurants on a Thursday. Guess what colour this pea soup is? Yup - you got it in one! A very good representation of a London pea souper both in colour and thickness! DGB is right - the soup is made with split yellow peas.

Carol

[DGB]

Split pea soup is yellow.

That is the only contribution I can make

[Robert]

I've only ever heard of green peas in the UK. The only time I've seen any other coloured peas was black ones (cooking error).

Yellow would make sense of the sulphur pollution I guess.

[Archaic]

Killer Fog 1952 & "Pea-Souper"

Hi Carol.

You asked if the photo in post #28 was taken in black & white or color. From the look of it, I think it must have been taken with black & white film.

Interesting that you remember "pea-soupers" as having been really yellowish...so they must have been the color of pea-soup as well as the density of pea-soup?

- That must seem obvious in the UK, but we're much more used to green peas in the U.S. rather than yellow peas, so we don't automatically picture "pea-soup fog" as being of a yellowish color. Guess I've always thought of it more as a metaphor for the fog being extremely thick & dense rather than as a description of its color too...but a yellow tint makes them sound even more dreadful! Did the yellowish cast give everything a sort of sludgy, greasy look? Ick.

I looked for a yellowish photo of thick London fog but didn't see any. Perhaps someone else can locate a good one?

I wonder if the addition of automobiles in the 20th C. changed the color of London's fog/smog to any appreciable extant? Leaded fuel automobile emissions must have been awful combined with coal fire- and as the NPR radio article pointed out, England was using very low-grade coke (coal fuel) in the aftermath of WWII, because the supplies of superior-grade fuel had gone for the war effort.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Beowulf]

I think the increasingly heavy police presence may have both muzzled him, and influenced the choice of an indoor victim...alternatively, or even additionally, there could well be other factors of which we know little as yet...

Or alternatively, for a completely different take on the whole thing, you could ask Lynn's opinions...now they're interesting...and I mean that in all sincerity!

All the best

Dave

Oh, yes. I do believe the heavy police presence had a lot to do with it. He was not a mentally well guy, but appears he sure didn't want to get caught, did he

Yes, Lynn. I understand you do not believe there was a ripper at all. So is this a good time to ask for a brief summary of your opinion, of which I have been meaning to delve into anyway.

[Cogidubnus]

I think the increasingly heavy police presence may have both muzzled him, and influenced the choice of an indoor victim...alternatively, or even additionally, there could well be other factors of which we know little as yet...

Or alternatively, for a completely different take on the whole thing, you could ask Lynn's opinions...now they're interesting...and I mean that in all sincerity!

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

Taken from said link:-



In other words, in November 1888 there presumably weren't anticyclonic and windless conditions, which were a prerequisite (along with pollution) for smog formation...the quote also suggests, that even if formed, smog can in any event be easily dispersed by meteorological changes...like wind and rain (not exactly uncommon in the UK in November!)

All the best

Dave

Oh, yeah. Ok. Now I understand that part. Still wondering if he chose her for her apartment though. If all through October he was muzzled due to weather it may have led to his new plan, 'inside'.

I don't say this is in my mind as an absolute, but I do wonder if he kind of stalked for a bit, looking for a girl who had an interior living space, where there was some privacy. Of course doss houses were out.

But the fog may have influenced him in this direction.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Barbara

Taken from said link:-

A period of cold weather, combined with an anticyclone and windless conditions, collected airborne pollutants mostly from the use of coal to form a thick layer of smog over the city. It lasted from Friday 5 to Tuesday 9 December 1952, and then dispersed quickly after a change of weather.

In other words, in November 1888 there presumably weren't anticyclonic and windless conditions, which were a prerequisite (along with pollution) for smog formation...the quote also suggests, that even if formed, smog can in any event be easily dispersed by meteorological changes...like wind and rain (not exactly uncommon in the UK in November!)

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Hi Barbara

Think the second link in Archaic's Post #23 explains much of the reasons behind the presence of "Smog", far deadlier and far more disturbing than ordinary fog...and conversely also the reasons for it's absence...

All the best

Dave

Am I being dense? That does not explain why there was no smog in November, 1888.

From the article, "As the smoke coming out of London's chimneys mixed with natural fog, the air turned colder. Londoners heaped more coal on their fires, making more smoke. Soon it was so dark some said they couldn't see their feet.

By Sunday, Dec. 7, visibility fell to one foot."

This 1952 smog went to the first week of December. The fog of 1888 went to October only? I'm sure they were still burning coal in November.

You know, come to think of it, Mary Kelly was killed inside. Maybe there was still a problem with visibility? Maybe this is why he hit upon the idea of an interior dwelling for his next murder?

Now that could be a reason why she was chosen, which I've always wondered. Did he look for a gal with an apartment after his October refrain, due to fog/smog.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Barbara

Think the second link in Archaic's Post #23 explains much of the reasons behind the presence of "Smog", far deadlier and far more disturbing than ordinary fog...and conversely also the reasons for it's absence...

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Greetings all,

It’s been noted that the Whitechapel murders were not committed during any of the notorious pea-soup London fogs. The evenings in question had, at best, the natural light, misty fog. The thick London fogs were the result of the condensation of water vapor (on days of high relative humidity caused by the location of the Thames combined with a cold ground) on the high volume of soot in the air from ‘sea coal’ being used to heat homes. This nasty ‘smog’ has been the cause of many deaths in the past, but thanks to the Clean Air Act in the 1950s, these London fogs rarely occur.

[/I]

This is very interesting to me, as I thought London fogs were common, like nearly daily. Duh. What do I know? Also, did not know the fogs were colored, or due to the burning of coal fires, which is understandable, but I did not know that. Interesting. Gee, I guess the ripper would've voted for that clean air act heheh.

I can well imagine no murders were committed because of the fog. But it would be interesting to see if there were any murders at all committed in 1888 during October, hard to believe there wouldn't be. Murders outside that is.

Why wouldn't there be a fog in November, though? London is by water, people were burning coal...? I know there weren't as it is recorded.

As far as the ripper being an asthmatic, well, cold sets off asthma attacks, and it's even colder in November. Just sayin'.

[Carol]

Hi Mike, here's a photo of what the 1952 fog looked like.

The fog-shrouded figures look both mysterious and rather creepy... I can't imagine trying to breathe that murky air!

I wonder if there are Casebook members who have family stories about it?

Archaic

Hi Archaic!

Is the photo in black and white? A real 'pea-souper' was a dull yellow in colour. Also, to someone (me) who has experienced several (last one in November 1962) then the photograph must have been taken when the fog was just beginning to get its act together! In the November '62 fog I was on my way home after being let out of school early in the hope of getting home 'in time' but I didn't manage it. The visibility was much worse than in the photograph - a man and I just managed to avoid colliding into each other! We saw no shadow of anyone approaching and no sound. The fog at its worst deadened all sound. A very eerie sensation!

We lived south of London in Chatham, Kent, and sometimes the London pea-soupers made their way down to us in the Medway towns. London warned us a fog was on its way and we children who lived more than three miles away from school were allowed out of school early.

The strange thing is (thinking about it now), we children were never afraid of the fogs and what might happen. We just looked upon them as an adventure. If I was caught up in a pea-souper nowadays I would be VERY afraid of what could happen.

Writing this makes ME feel archaic, Archaic!

Carol

[Archaic]

1952 Killer Fog

Hi Mike, here's a photo of what the 1952 fog looked like.

The fog-shrouded figures look both mysterious and rather creepy... I can't imagine trying to breathe that murky air!

I wonder if there are Casebook members who have family stories about it?

Archaic