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  • #16
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Hi Scorpio,

    One might look at it this way. The fact that the Ripper murdered at least 3 times in a fairly short time under highly risky circumstances seems to suggest a rather impulsive killer who wasn’t able to restrain himself for long. That he risked his very life staying on the crime scene for some time mutilating his victims’ bodies the way he did tells us that those mutilations were of the utmost importance to him.

    When you look at it that way, it’s not too difficult to see that mutilating his victims’ bodies as long as he could before he felt forced to leave may very well have been more important than losing precious time trying to conceal them.

    All the best,
    Frank

    Precisely so. He just wanted to kill, mutilate and then be off, not waste time.

    I would argue that the Torso killer(s) were not exactly trying to hide identity, it was just that walking the streets with a leg wrapped up ready to bundle off a bridge is infinitely easier than dragging a corpse. It's a matter of ease and convenience - shortest distance, smallest package, lightest weight, least chance of getting caught - we humans are lazy.

    If, and I believe a convincing case could be made, the Torso killer(s) and JTR were one and the same, then the Canonical 5(6/7) would be a different manifestation of the same urge - a quick fix, if you like. The torso murders are much more considered, and thus need to be disposed of in a more careful way.

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    • #17
      Hi Doc. You mean to say you think the torso killer would have disposed of the largest portions (i.e., the torso, or a leg) closer to his home, and the smaller pieces (face, head, arm, et al) furthest away from his home? That's very interesting.

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
        Funny, but what's really come out of this thread is the idea that JTR DID in fact conceal himself enough to do what he did. The bodies were just left where they were killed and mutilated, but he apparently did conceal himself enough to take the few chances that he did to procure organs and do a little work on the features of Eddowes. If we (I at least) look at such things in that regard, the murder of Kelly seems such an obvious realization of the killer's desires that I can't see Kelly being anyone else's. This might be the first time I've actually gone down that path. Wow.

        Mike

        Yes, yes. This is great, you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps we should view it like this...

        Eddowes, Nichols, et al - outside - dangerous - quick fixes - kill, mutilate... run
        Kelly - inside - less dangerous (but not safe) - slow fix - kill, mutilate, take more time
        Torso murders - inside Rippers own safe zone - safe - very slow and enjoyable - kill, mutilate, relax - no worries about getting caught

        The Kelly mutilation and the torso murders are what the ripper wanted, but was unable to achieve with the quick fixes.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
          Hi Doc. You mean to say you think the torso killer would have disposed of the largest portions (i.e., the torso, or a leg) closer to his home, and the smaller pieces (face, head, arm, et al) furthest away from his home? That's very interesting.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott
          Hi Tom

          Honestly... I'm not sure!
          Yes, I think that that is a distinct possibility as it makes sense - people don't walk farther than they have to when dumping rubbish (human remains in this case), that is an almost universal truth. After all, he is unlikely to have his own carriage (though costermonger's barrow is a possibility), and I cannot see it being easy to carry a torso - even in 3 bits (a la Elizabeth Jackson) it has to be awkward. So yes, in Jackson's case, we need to be looking toward places that are nearer to Albert Bridge than other bridges and convenient dumping places - as, if we accept the 'lazy' model, he would use those, rather than walking past them to dump at another bridge.

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          • #20
            Good thinking. I'll keep that in mind when I finally get around to really researching the torso murders. Keep in mind, though, there is (at least in my opinion) a possibility that Elizabeth Jackson was not part of the series.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

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            • #21
              Alas, re: Jackson, I think you are correct. She doesn't fit with the others the same way... just a feeling.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DrHopper View Post
                The Kelly mutilation and the torso murders are what the ripper wanted, but was unable to achieve with the quick fixes.
                Actually, I've been thinking of something like this. Plus I see parallels in the MO of taunting the police in both the Double Event and the Whitehall torso murder.


                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                Keep in mind, though, there is (at least in my opinion) a possibility that Elizabeth Jackson was not part of the series.
                Cuz of the chronology and the pregnacy, Tom?
                Best regards,
                Maria

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                • #23
                  Yes, and the clothing. She was identified, after all. But again, that's not an OPINION of mine, just something I'm not going to take for granted until I can really look at the cases.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

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                  • #24
                    I hear what you're saying, but the chronology could fit, since the suspect in question was getting help.
                    This reminds me that one of the 4 Paris torsos got identified through a wood leg still attached to it. (They traced where and to which lady the wood leg was sold.) What's also significant is that ALL 4 Paris torsos were found nude, while the men's cadavers fished out of the Seine were not missing limbs AND they still had their clothes on. This I got from researching the entries in the Paris morgue for 1886/1887 3 days ago (at the Paris Police Museum). So folks, don't tell me that the torso murders were not sexually motivated (by which I mean, possibly in the same indirect fashion that the Ripper crimes were motivated).
                    Best regards,
                    Maria

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                    • #25
                      Hi Maria. There's no 'suspect in question'. We're just discussing the torso murders. Would love to get some specifics on those torso murders. Maybe some medical records? Do we know if the London police and doctors were in communication with the French authorities and medicos after the Thames bodies started popping up?

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                        Hi Maria. There's no 'suspect in question'. We're just discussing the torso murders.
                        Didn't say a thing.

                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                        Would love to get some specifics on those torso murders. Maybe some medical records?
                        I've got my notes from the morgue and will give them to you when I've slept another night or two, or maybe even later tonight. Still, like I told you, my hopes for more details are in French newspapers, which I can do in about a month, when I get back to Paris again.

                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                        Do we know if the London police and doctors were in communication with the French authorities and medicos after the Thames bodies started popping up?
                        Nice thinking, but from the morgue entries/notes I can't see that, and the French case files prior to 1920 are comprehensively lost. And no correspondence from the police has survived, though I'm gonna ask my archivist friend again about this, just to make sure. Again, my only hope is the newspapers. But I very much doubt that the London and Paris police were collaborating on this (unlike with the anarchists' question). There was nothing Interpol-like at the time, and if there was collaboration the British newspapers might have gotten wind of that, instead of publishing fabricated stories about “Vassiliev, the French Ripper“?
                        But please, keep bringing cool research ideas like these. Esp. until I catch up on some sleep and can think relatively straight again, lol. ;-)
                        Best regards,
                        Maria

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