Did Jack kill more than three?

[Tom_Wescott]

Jen,

Are you a reader of Ripper Notes magazine?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Barksey]

what is often left out in the discussion on cutting when falling or not, is that there is no need to assume that Stride must have been cut as she was standing, to fall only afterwards.
As she fell, her neck started out at a height of about 140 centimeters above the ground. When she ended up on the ground, that height had been reduced to almost nothing.
She could of course have suffered the cut at any given level. And that has immense bearing on the question. Blackwell suggested it, remember.

The point though, is that blood cut from an artery would spurt: even if she was at ankle height, the blood would fly out. Either she was suffocated in some way first and then laid down, in which case why slit her throat, or she was held down - Which is what Phillips suggested had happened. Even Blackwell admits that he could find no blood on the wall. He also says a "Quantity of clotted blood" (Evans/Skinner, 167)- suggesting more than a few splashes; the suggestion of the 'flying cut' is less than forcefully put, Blackwell says he "Cannot say whether the throat was cut while the woman was standing or after she was pulled backwards" (Evans/Skinner, 168).

On the Goldstein issue; yes, I have already pointed out that seeing Diemshutz/-shitz as the only potential disturber would be a stupid thing to do.
Could have been a rat running over the yard that spooked him, for all we know, someone opening a window, someone shouting something from the upper floor. The possibilities are endless - but none of them alters the act that if it happened, it happened at the PRECISE split second when he cut.

Nor would it have to; I think you are misleading yourself there. All it would have to do is happen between the moment he ended the 1st cut, and when he began the second. A footstep could easily happen in that time period; Something could bang against the door in that time. There is no need for a precise split second. (PS: *Hello speculation my old Friend*; there could of course be about a dozen other reasons, including the killer just being a plain old one-cut thug)

I don´t find Dutfields Yard similar to the Hanbury Street backyard and Mitre Square for the simple reason that Dutfield´s was neighbouring one helluva party going on in the club. Hanbury and Mitre Square were quiet spots where the risk of having a merry pack of clubbers falling over you was minimized.

I was thinking more in terms of limited exits and risk of discovery. Hanbury Street was quiet, but someone had already opened the door to the yard once that morning, and the next-door neighbour was also up and about. I would think under those circumstances, risk of interruption must be quite high.

As for "what would we all disagree about if Stride wasn't in the canon?", I can´t say. But I am sure I´ll think of something, should the problem arise!

Good to hear.

Anyway, will have to abandon this for today, as I have an appointment with an NHS sadist tomorrow and need great quantities of sleep beforehand .

Take care all
Jen

[CitizenX]

I actually take this a bit further. Right or wrong I do not know because I am NOT trained in any of the forensic disciplines.

Basically I dont care whether the "act" involves the MO or not. Anything the perpetrator does to effect his/her crime can be a signature. So JTR wants to remove organs. In order to do this he must find victims. He chooses unfortunates. Thats part of his MO but to me the fact that he chooses unfortunates is also a signature. JTR cuts the neck. Thats MO but to me also a signature.

OK..notice I used act in quotation. This because I also include in my classification as signature thing that are beyond the control of the perp.
A good example is the notches to the spine. JTR may not have intended this. But the way he used his knife caused them.

Also..In my book. Signatures dont have to show up everytime the perp commits a crime. That does not cause me to eliminate a victim of the perp. It just causes me to be less sure.

I'm not an expert either, just a googlepert lol

I was just playing a little with NOV9 with that last post. But I do understand the point he has been trying to make over the last week (i think??).

Signature is an act or ritual that the perp must go through for him to obtain satisfacation from the act. It maybe certain words he has to say, or makes the victim say during the act. Or the way he displays the body after the act, for example not trying to hide or dispose of the body but displaying it in a shocking manner to the person who discovers it. Other factors out of his control or which are not essential to his fantasy mean nothing and can change.

Its like going to the pub for a beer...how you get there, which transport or route you use, or what time you arrive contribute nothing to the actual act, thats the Modus Operandi. The signature is the act of drinking of the beer .

Sometimes though the more you fulfil this fantasy, although it's satisfying, you may need more...... So now when you arrive at the pub instead of drinking beer this time you fancy a vodka...thats still part of the signature its just that it's evolving as you gain more experience or need more of a buzz!!....Hope that sounds simpler to follow..??

But thats only my understanding of it...im sure somebody will put me right!!

Kevin

[Tom_Wescott]

I don`t see any good reason to include Stride

I absolutely agree. I also don't understand why the LAPD jumped to the rash conclusion that Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman were killed by the same person. It's our fortune that we possess far more data on the lives, movements, associates, and habits of these women then the mouthbreathers who investigated the case back in 1888. Our files are so much fuller than theirs, allowing us to see what should have been obvious to the London police had they had but one intelligent person in their midst - that there's absolutely and unequivocably no reason to suppose that two women of the same age and profession, killed within a brisk walk of each other, in the same hour, and in the same manner, by an unknown killer, might bear some relation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Damien]

Hi

Sorry - I haven`t read the previous posts, but...

...my favourite victim-list sounds like this:

- Some minor assaults
- Tabram
- Nicholls
- Chapman
- Eddowes
- Maybe Kelly

I believe the killer was a criminal, maybe a robber, before starting his series - and I think the fantasy he had for many years broke out spontanously on a normal robbers job: Tabram. Maybe he tried to steal something of sleeping Martha - she woke up, and so he had to do something to keep her quiet.
After murdering his first victim he finally could performe his hidden fantasies. But indeed it could be something completely different

I don`t see any good reason to include Stride - and I don`t see any good reason to believe Nicholls was the first victim of this killer.

Damien

[Mitch Rowe]

When a serial offender demonstrates repetitive ritualistic behavior from crime to crime this repetitive personation is referred to as signature.

Violent repetitive offenders often exhibit a signature or calling card involving conduct that goes beyond the actions necessary to perpetrate the crime. It is a unique but integral part of the offender?s behavior while committing the offense. This signature can be thought of as acting out the expression of violent fantasies. The offender introduces an aspect of his personality to the crime through this ritualistic act.

The offenders Modus Operandi may change but while the signature may evolve the core or the ritual never changes.

It's amazing what google brings up dont you think?

Kevin

I actually take this a bit further. Right or wrong I do not know because I am NOT trained in any of the forensic disciplines.

Basically I dont care whether the "act" involves the MO or not. Anything the perpetrator does to effect his/her crime can be a signature. So JTR wants to remove organs. In order to do this he must find victims. He chooses unfortunates. Thats part of his MO but to me the fact that he chooses unfortunates is also a signature. JTR cuts the neck. Thats MO but to me also a signature.

OK..notice I used act in quotation. This because I also include in my classification as signature thing that are beyond the control of the perp.
A good example is the notches to the spine. JTR may not have intended this. But the way he used his knife caused them.

Also..In my book. Signatures dont have to show up everytime the perp commits a crime. That does not cause me to eliminate a victim of the perp. It just causes me to be less sure.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

I'm not sure of what point you were making. Were you agreeing or disagreeing with me? As I've pointed out before, at least three of the Ripper victims were probably robbed before being murdered, so a man robbing women at knife point in the vicinity can hardly be called a silly suggestion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott, in yet another effort to discredit those who recognize that Jack may not have been Strides killer, writes:

"There was also another, unnamed man robbing women by knife point within a few hundred yards of that spot. "

Way to go, Tom. A robber fits the profile perfectly! Well, more or less, but what the heck...

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Barksey writes:

"She could not have been cut 'during her fall', as blood would have been found on the walls, and also on her clothing. Gravity prevails."

Jen, what is often left out in the discussion on cutting when falling or not, is that there is no need to assume that Stride must have been cut as she was standing, to fall only afterwards.
As she fell, her neck started out at a height of about 140 centimeters above the ground. When she ended up on the ground, that height had been reduced to almost nothing.
She could of course have suffered the cut at any given level. And that has immense bearing on the question. Blackwell suggested it, remember.
Also, if her left carotid artery was opened up during her fall, we cannot say in which direction the jet of blood was directed, can we? If blood was shed during the fall, there is at least the outward possibility that the blood could have ended up beneath Stride.

On the Goldstein issue; yes, I have already pointed out that seeing Diemshutz/-shitz as the only potential disturber would be a stupid thing to do.
Could have been a rat running over the yard that spooked him, for all we know, someone opening a window, someone shouting something from the upper floor. The possibilities are endless - but none of them alters the act that if it happened, it happened at the PRECISE split second when he cut.

I don´t find Dutfields Yard similar to the Hanbury Street backyard and Mitre Square for the simple reason that Dutfield´s was neighbouring one helluva party going on in the club. Hanbury and Mitre Square were quiet spots where the risk of having a merry pack of clubbers falling over you was minimized.

As for "what would we all disagree about if Stride wasn't in the canon?", I can´t say. But I am sure I´ll think of something, should the problem arise!

The very best, Jen!
Fisherman

[CitizenX]

The only missing signature I know about is the one missing from the Goulston Street Graffiti!!

I'll just pop off and do a pschology degree on Google....see you in 30mins

Kevin

[NOV9]

When a serial offender demonstrates repetitive ritualistic behavior from crime to crime this repetitive personation is referred to as signature.

Violent repetitive offenders often exhibit a signature or calling card involving conduct that goes beyond the actions necessary to perpetrate the crime. It is a unique but integral part of the offender’s behavior while committing the offense. This signature can be thought of as acting out the expression of violent fantasies. The offender introduces an aspect of his personality to the crime through this ritualistic act.

The offenders Modus Operandi may change but while the signature may evolve the core or the ritual never changes.

It's amazing what google brings up dont you think?

Kevin

You are not Dan,

But I do not think that Dan could have said it any better.

There is a signature missing in the MJK killing.

Do know what it is?

I know what signature is missing? But you have to find it yourself.

So forget about asking me Doc or Dan.

NOV9

[CitizenX]

Dan,

You tell me what you think signature is?

When a serial offender demonstrates repetitive ritualistic behavior from crime to crime this repetitive personation is referred to as signature.

Violent repetitive offenders often exhibit a signature or calling card involving conduct that goes beyond the actions necessary to perpetrate the crime. It is a unique but integral part of the offender’s behavior while committing the offense. This signature can be thought of as acting out the expression of violent fantasies. The offender introduces an aspect of his personality to the crime through this ritualistic act.

The offenders Modus Operandi may change but while the signature may evolve the core or the ritual never changes.

It's amazing what google brings up dont you think?

Kevin

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Nov9,As a general point, I think that the "irrational" card is in overplayed - the Ripperologist's Deus ex machina?
With one or two possibly contentious exceptions, I don't think that the cuts show that the Ripper invested very much meaning into them at all. As far as the external wounds were concerned, the majority seem to indicate little more than a desire to mutilate and to get at the victim's innards as quickly as possible.

Can you name those contentious exceptions? Surely the cuts to Eddowes upper eyelids required some form of thought process. They certainly do not look accidental. Likewise why remove parts of Kelly's eyebrows, remove, taken away, surely the killer intended to do this?



Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

The reason all the Swedes and Canadians are so angry that no one is willing to follow their belief that Stride was killed by Michael Kidney and not Jack the Ripper, is simply because their argument is laughable. End of story.

There are much better suspects for the killer of the Stride than Michael Kidney, one of them being Charles Le Grand - who may not have been Jack the Ripper. He was a pimp, whore beater, who showed up after the murder and coerced people into providing false witness statements. Following this he bragged about killing a woman. There was also another, unnamed man robbing women by knife point within a few hundred yards of that spot. Again, way better suspects than Michael Kidney who was cleared by police. If you want to argue that Jack the Ripper didn't kill Stride, be a little more original than pointing the finger at Michael Kidney for the billionth time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NOV9]

Does that sentence make sense in your head somehow? Comic books have nothing to do with anything. I'm talking about the experts who write the textbooks and other professional references on criminology have to say. If you think those sources are no better than comic books, then you have no reason to even use the word "signature" in the first place. You can't just borrow a professional term to try to make yourself sound more intelligent while ignoring what all the professionals have to say about that term. You might as well be trying to claim that Kelly was murdered by someone other than the Ripper because the killer reversed the polarity of her neutron flow.

Dan,

You tell me what you think signature is?