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  • #46
    one sweep of the knife

    Anatomical drawing of the female lower torso. I invite people to form their own conclusions on Dr, Phillips comments regarding Mrs. Chapman's injuries and whether such a thing was even physically possible. Dave
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    We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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    • #47
      And here are Mary's injuries. Sorry that the text is breaking up, but I had to put it on or you wouldn't really have known which bit was which. It wasn't the easiest diagram to illustrate really.
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      I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
        Joel..I thought your Post coupled with Dave's images was fascinating..I've got a question. It's not to do with JtR really, neither is it 'jokey' ;I'd like to know the answer..

        There are occasions of men strangling THEMSELVES to death, by accident, for sexual pleasure. I dimly remember a politician in Burgess Hill , Sussex,
        killing himself by accident with a pair of tights and an orange in the mouth..
        how does this work ?

        Why isn't there a reflex to stop when you're killing yourself ? I'd have imagined that they would pass out and release the pressure ?
        Auto-asphyxiation, I have heard of this (can't say I've experimented however...). I would imagine that the raised blood pressure in the skull, with the lack of carbn dioxide removal would play a bit of a psychological thrill seeking feeling here, although I can't imagine it feeling very pleasant. Certainly some folks get an adrenalin kick from a feeling of danger or vulnerability. It will also make you quite dizzy, and no doubt gives some sort of euphoria to some people. Frankly I'd be too worried about serious injury to worry about other methods of enjoyment whilst I was being strangled, but each to their own I suppose

        When people have been found dead, as far as I am aware, they are not holding the end of the rope or whatever they use, but have secured it to something. This of course poses the obvious problem. If one were holding the rope oneself when the syncope reflex kicks in your grip will fail and you will come round, or you can release the tension yourself.

        If of course it is attached to something else, when you pass out and the muscles relax you will fall and gravity will assist you in strangling yourself to death.

        there is as it happens an instinctive reflex to protect the throat and stop if you are manually trying to strangle yourself, but then these people no doubt overcome this through force of will to get their kicks. Of course there is still the theory of sinus reflex death, but I do not know if this is actually the case.

        Certainly the vast majority of accidental deaths by this means are male victims, with relatively few female ones. this might be due to it producing a stronger effect in males, or that females are less willing to take the same risks. Or it could be that women take the sense not to tie the rope to the rafters in the first place. Sadly I cannot guess at an answer to this part.

        Having said that I'm no expert on the practice, so I can only guess based on the physiology.

        Unless anyone here has some experience they want to share with us on it
        if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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        • #49
          And here's Alice Mackenzie. I Haven't done Frances Cole's injuries yet, but I probably will. I'm afraid Martha Tabram is impossible to even attempt as the descriptions were too vague.

          Jane

          xxxxx
          Attached Files
          I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

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          • #50
            Your awesome Jane, keep them coming please! Dave
            We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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            • #51
              many thanks

              Thank you everyone who has posted, it is very nice to have a thread not governed by speculation and dedicated to sharing information. I think you are all a part of what is right in ripper studies. Thanks again and keep it coming! Dave
              We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by protohistorian View Post
                Anatomical drawing of the female lower torso. I invite people to form their own conclusions on Dr, Phillips comments regarding Mrs. Chapman's injuries and whether such a thing was even physically possible. Dave
                Which part of the injuries are you questioning?
                if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by joelhall View Post
                  Which part of the injuries are you questioning?
                  The whole single movement concept in general. Perhaps you will help me Joel, I have not found a good way to demonstrate mesencentric attachments. Perhaps you could be so kind as to do this? Dave
                  We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                  • #54
                    Just noticed a typo which I cannot edit now. The digestive tract being 5m should be '5m minimum, in a small adult.' Generally it's around 8m.

                    This is what happens when I try to shorten my lengthly posts (not that they get that short anyway...)
                    if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by protohistorian View Post
                      The whole single movement concept in general. Perhaps you will help me Joel, I have not found a good way to demonstrate mesencentric attachments. Perhaps you could be so kind as to do this? Dave
                      Do you mean how were the intestines removed from the mesentary?
                      if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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                      • #56
                        Something to help understand this Dr. Phillips statement regarding Annie, "The abdomen had been entirely laid open: the intestines, severed from their mesenteric attachments, had been lifted out of the body and placed on the shoulder of the corpse;..." Dave
                        We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                        • #57
                          Well the mesentery is part of the peritoneum which holds the small intestine to the back wall of the abdominal cavity. It's really two layers of peritoneum with some loose connective tissue between them, which form the lining of the cavity. Mesentery is often used in a fairly loose fashion to refer to any double layer of the peritoneum which is invaginated by a visceral organ, although strictly speaking it is only the double layer which holds the ilium and jejunum of the small intestine.

                          If you were to imagine a layer that surrounds the intestines, where part of it folds in on itself and through the loop runs the ilium (i suspect I'm causing even more confusion now hehe) then that infolding part, the double layer forming the fold is the mesentery. It occurs where organ protrude into the peritoneum itself, to help bind the to the cavity wall.

                          If you imagine a baby growing in the uterus. When it is growing the cavity is covered in a closed sac of membrane with a cavity inside it. Outside this are organs like the kidneys, whilst organs such as the stomach protrude into it as they grow, and become almost completely surrounded by the membrane of the sac (like pushing your fist into a latex sheet, it becomes wrapped by it) which lines the walls of the cavity. Where they fold back on themselves after enveloping the organ, in this case the ilium and jejunum, the double layer extending from the cavity wall is the mesentery.

                          Basically this membrane had been cut or ripped when the organs were removed, making the intestines only attached to the rest of the digestive tract and no longer anchored to the cavity wall, making them relatively free, and able to 'uncoil' as far as is possible after ripping them out. If they were still attached via the mesentery, then certain anterior parts could be pulled out, but at it's attachments the intestines would still be firmly secured to the back of the abdominal wall.

                          I've drawn a very rudimentary sketch with paint (I cannot use these things to save my life, it's taken me ages and it's still crap!) I hope this will help to understand it a little better, but if not I'll try and do a better diagram tomorrow.
                          Attached Files
                          if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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                          • #58
                            You rock Joel, no worries on the art, we are after a clear understanding, not Renoir. Dave
                            We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                            • #59
                              Hi,

                              There aren't that many more to do really, although I should do poor Frances. I'll get around to it when I get a chance.

                              As I said, some of it is best guess, because the information just isn't there, but at least it's interesting to compare the size and shape of the wounds etc.,

                              I do think I have some photos from way back of bits and pieces pertinent to the thread, but I'm not sure if they are copyrighted. I'll see what I can dig out.

                              Very good thread by the way!

                              Much love

                              Janie

                              xxxx
                              I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

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                              • #60
                                Nichols neck wound length's

                                described as," On the left side of the neck, about 1 in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4 in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1 in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3 in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8 in. in length. the cuts must have been caused by a long-bladed knife, moderately sharp, and used with great violence. "

                                The green line is four inches in length, the black line adds 4 more. Sorry for the crudity, they will get better, I promise. Dave
                                Attached Files
                                We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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