JTR: Not even the skill of a butcher?

[Natalie Severn]

The day a skilled medical practitioner removes my kidney damaging my spleen, pancreas and liver in the process is the day I sue. Of course, if he simultaneously cut a tongue-like flap in my abdominal aorta, I'd be lucky to survive to enjoy the payout

Well if Dr Shipman had persuaded you to let him do it I suspect you would have joined his two hundred and fifty or so patients in another place !

[c.d.]

I am Godfather to the son of some Jewish friends of mine. They had the bris at their house and I had a front row seat...Oy!!!

c.d.

[c.d.]

Some doc or mohei come up short?

--J.D.

Yes, they asked for just a little off the top but...

c.d.

[Doctor X]

One time I had to research settlement amounts for botched circumcisions...yikes (to say the least).

Some doc or mohei come up short?

--J.D.

[Sam Flynn]

Now if he had left a sponge behind...

I suffered from "sponge behind" once, CD - it's what you get from spending too much time posting on Casebook, so be warned! Not quite as bad as a botched circumcision, but not by much

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,



Yes, but that was primarily in the wake of the Hanbury Street murder, when the most recent medical opinion to date testified to surgical skill. Pity no second opinion was proffered on that occasion as it was at Mitre Square. After Hanbury Street, there was no longer any reason to limit their investigative focus to those with medical prowess because by that stage, most doctors were arguing against the presence of surgical skill.



But that didn't mean that he was ruling out a complete rank amateur; only that the killer could have been employed in any of the above capacities.



Sorry, Nats, but "enough people" is quite an exaggeration. Only one person was "convinced" of a medical training, and that "one" also attributed Chapman and Eddowes to different killers. Far more contemporary medical commentators detected little to no expertise.

You are wrong here Ben .I suggest you read Dr Brown"s report of the City Police in Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner"s Ultimate where you will see that he too argues very strongly that the Ripper appeared to have had medical expertise.And BTW, Dr Phillips recorded findings are also there and give ample testimony to his medical expertise also.

[c.d.]

The day a skilled medical practitioner removes my kidney damaging my spleen, pancreas and liver in the process is the day I sue. Of course, if he simultaneously cut a tongue-like flap in my abdominal aorta, I'd be lucky to survive to enjoy the payout

Now if he had left a sponge behind....

One time I had to research settlement amounts for botched circumcisions...yikes (to say the least).

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

the one time that some demonstration of skill was needed (the removal of Eddowes' kidney) he did just that.

The day a skilled medical practitioner removes my kidney damaging my spleen, pancreas and liver in the process is the day I sue. Of course, if he simultaneously cut a tongue-like flap in my abdominal aorta, I'd be lucky to survive to enjoy the payout

[Doctor X]

And as Natalie notes, this is driven by finding suspects. I mean . . . if we all knew it was Cranston Snord of Hugenot-Maroon Drive, Swansea . . . well, it would not be that interesting.

However, if by some chance would could discover the murderer, people will fit the facts whatever skill he had or not. That is the nature of such reconstructions; mythicist, folklorists, and the like have to do it all of the time.

--J.D.

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

The reason for the debate is because the police believed the Ripper may have been a doctor and combed the country and the continent to this effect.

Yes, but that was primarily in the wake of the Hanbury Street murder, when the most recent medical opinion to date testified to surgical skill. Pity no second opinion was proffered on that occasion as it was at Mitre Square. After Hanbury Street, there was no longer any reason to limit their investigative focus to those with medical prowess because by that stage, most doctors were arguing against the presence of surgical skill.

Swanson concluded from both their reports on the Mitre Square murder that a slaughterer,or butcher or a hunter AS WELL AS A STUDENT OR A PROPERLY QUALIFIED SURGEON could have been the murderer

But that didn't mean that he was ruling out a complete rank amateur; only that the killer could have been employed in any of the above capacities.

nevertheless,what he did manage to accomplish in the brief time allowed impressed enough people sufficiently at the time to convince themselves he was trained in medicine

Sorry, Nats, but "enough people" is quite an exaggeration. Only one person was "convinced" of a medical training, and that "one" also attributed Chapman and Eddowes to different killers. Far more contemporary medical commentators detected little to no expertise.

[Natalie Severn]

An excellent point, Natalie. I have always felt the same. It seems like the one time that some demonstration of skill was needed (the removal of Eddowes' kidney) he did just that.

c.d.

Thanks c.d.----much appreciated!
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

So the very few good bits we attribute to skill, and all the rest we attribute to haste?

Nah.

What about attributing all the bad bits to a lack of skill and the very few good bits to luck?

Neither viewpoint is any more justifiable than the other.

The reason for the debate is because the police believed the Ripper may have been a doctor and combed the country and the continent to this effect.
Macnaghten even seems to have slightly falsified his report where he actually laid claim to Druitt being a "doctor" when he was definitely not, very possibly to strengthen his case for Druitt being The Ripper.
Swanson quoted only two police doctors opinions regarding Catherine Eddowes, the divisional surgeon for the metropolitan police,Dr Phillips and the City Police Surgeon, Brown, presumably because both were very experienced Police Surgeons .
Now its true that Dr Phillips was less convinced in the case of the Mitre Square murder than Brown and that Swanson concluded from both their reports on the Mitre Square murder that a slaughterer,or butcher or a hunter AS WELL AS A STUDENT OR A PROPERLY QUALIFIED SURGEON could have been the murderer.And this meant at that moment in time, that the police were able to widen their focus to people other than student doctors and properly qualified doctors in their hunt for the Ripper.


But surely you can see that even if the Ripper was the Police Surgeon in Chief himself,he would hardly be thinking he was abiding by the Hippocratic Oath when he was slipping out late at night finding women to murder and mutilate or deluding himself that he was giving the world a demonstration of his "medical expertise" in Mitre Square?
No the murderer was almost certainly in one hellish frame of mind and in a race against time.In fact time was of the essence in each case,lighting was very poor,he was in a state of high excitement no doubt---indeed if he was a sexual serial killer he was probably ejaculating----so hardly likely to be thinking about demonstrating his prowess as a surgeon on the street-----nevertheless,what he did manage to accomplish in the brief time allowed impressed enough people sufficiently at the time to convince themselves he was trained in medicine.

[Ben]

So the very few good bits we attribute to skill, and all the rest we attribute to haste?

Nah.

What about attributing all the bad bits to a lack of skill and the very few good bits to luck?

Neither viewpoint is any more justifiable than the other.

[c.d.]

An excellent point, Natalie. I have always felt the same. It seems like the one time that some demonstration of skill was needed (the removal of Eddowes' kidney) he did just that.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

True, but the photographs aren't that bad - I think those of Eddowes and Kelly are good enough to get a reasonable idea of what we're up against. In addition, there is arguably enough detail in terms of the damage left behind - viz., tongue-like cut to the aorta, two slashed colons, bit of belly wall attaching navel, jabs and stabs to the spleen, cuts to pancreas and liver, torn lung, hacked stomach, stump of bladder etc. - from which to draw reasonable inferences too.

You know Sam and Ben, the person we are talking about was into "street murder" not performing operations in a hospital! Why would he have been wanting to do neat clean knife cuts particulary? Would he have even tried in those high risk and unlit conditions?
Whats clear is that he needed to speedily subdue,kill,mutilate,steal an organ or two and get away fast .That was his objective----not showing off playing doctors with stethoscope and white coat , in somebody"s back yard.
We need to ask who or what was he doing this for? Probably just himself or possibly as part of a planned series but surely not to pass a medical examination whether or not he was a doctor!
Natalie