Only 1 indoor murder?

[FrankO]

......and I cant say that I have seen one that exists that suggests the same for Millers Court.

"It was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased. ... Kelly was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her way of gaining a livelihood."
Elizabeth Prater in the Daily Telegraph of 10 November 1888

[Victor]

Hi Mike,

Unless Mary was performing oral sex, then she doesn't necessarily have to miss a note.

Just a thought...

KR,
Vic.

If Mary worked for anyone that night in her room, it is far more reasonable to assume it was as a singer and not a whore. To my knowledge sex was performed without a floor show for the most part....and for street whores, not often by candlelight indoors.

Cheers gents

[Victor]

Me too Sam. I believe that 13 Miller's Court has an equal chance of being a prostitute's "work area" as Hanbury or Mitre.

KR,
Vic.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I'm sure I can find quotes that suggests the sites I mentioned were known to have prostitutes perform sex there outdoors

I'd be delighted if you could enlighten me, Mike, but please note that opinions in various books don't count. It's primary sources we need - and that goes for Miller's Court as much as Buck's Row, Hanbury Street and Mitre Square. I wouldn't be surprised to find that, to your average unfortunate, any suitable spot would have passed muster, whether indoors or outdoors, depending on circumstance, and that there was nothing "special" about any of the aforementioned locations in that regard.

and I cant say that I have seen one that exists that suggests the same for Millers Court.

How about the very night of Kelly's death? For instance, Kelly's bringing Mr Blotchy back to her room, to say nothing of other documented instances of punters accompanying prostitutes into similar Courts in Late Victorian Spitalfields.

I think its odd that people assume that whores would live their entire existence preoccupied with whoring....in their own room

It's even odder to assume that a known prostitute, living in a room of her own, would not have used it for "professional" purposes.

Sam, I'm sure I can find quotes that suggests the sites I mentioned were known to have prostitutes perform sex there outdoors......and I cant say that I have seen one that exists that suggests the same for Millers Court.

The stone tunnel entrance should really be considered here.....this wasnt a thoroughfare, or a known whore tricks zone.

I think its odd that people assume that whores would live their entire existence preoccupied with whoring....in their own room, even when its pouring outside, even when they had no need for money that night....when we know that many Unfortunates despised that life....alledgedly the one in Millers Court too.

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

For Vic and Sam....the point regarding the venues of Hanbury Street and Mitre Square, and George Yard, and Bucks Row, is that they were known to have street prostitutes take clients there to have outdoor sex in the dark.

Actually, it's not known for certain, Mike - in either case. It should be apparent to anyone who has studied this case for a reasonable length of time that "classical" Ripper literature has its fair share of assumptions, not all of them based on fact. This strikes me as another instance of the same.

so with respect Sam, the situation in Millers Court has nothing in common with them, this was the residences of street whores, not a work zone.

Even if it were true that Buck's Row, 29 Hanbury Street and Mitre Square were "known" as popular prostitute destinations - which, as I say, isn't a certainty - wouldn't it be the case that Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were using those venues in the same way that Kelly chose to use her own room?

On your point about Millers Court, again, it was not a known spot for whores to deliver services to clients outdoors....Hanbury, Mitre and Bucks Row were.

Again, we must be wary of making such assertions - and I've seen little that would lead me to believe that Hanbury/Mitre/Bucks were "known spots for whores" at all. It strikes me that any dark, secluded spot (which 29 Hanbury wasn't!) could have been used by a prostitute and her client at any given time - as, indeed, could places like Miller's Court. In fact, there appears to be rather more evidence that Miller's Court - and places like it - was used as a prostitutes' destination (as well as a residence) than there is that Hanbury/Mitre/Bucks ever were.

Time for a multi rebuttal post.... ....

Victor, the fact that Cadosche comes out for a nightly tinkle at around that time is something that the killer would likely have no idea about before entering that yard, and the yard was fenced in completely without a gate, so he had 3 fences he could jump including Cadosche's if trouble came down the passage inside #29.

For Vic and Sam....the point regarding the venues of Hanbury Street and Mitre Square, and George Yard, and Bucks Row, is that they were known to have street prostitutes take clients there to have outdoor sex in the dark. Its how Jack gets his victims in the first place,.....so with respect Sam, the situation in Millers Court has nothing in common with them, this was the residences of street whores, not a work zone.

Frank, ...Mary Ann was aware that the singing had stopped when she left again at around 1:15am, and that it was going on when she came into the court a little earlier, after returning from leaving the court after she saw Mary and Blotchy enter. The singing is noticed for some hour and a half off and on. We can assume that Blotchy came with Mary straight from the pub....he still has a tankard in his hand......and since she is hammered and had no money to get like that, she had a "sponsor" that night.....maybe one that walked her home too. I dont know what Blocthy felt might happen when he got to her room, but if he was paying her for sex, he got ripped off it seems. Aside from a single incident with Blotchy, there is no record of Mary ever having been seen taking a client into Millers Court, and in fact we have her lovers statement that he didnt like her working the streets. Since she is hammered and singing, I dont see why you would take this as the one time she brings a client in.

On your point about Millers Court, again, it was not a known spot for whores to deliver services to clients outdoors....Hanbury, Mitre and Bucks Row were.

On the point about sounds in the backyards alerting residents......consider that 20 Hanbury had 17 residents and at least one that got up that early regularly, ... Richardson. Since the Ripper seems to keep them quiet somehow, all he is to the residents is some boots outside...like they would normally hear when the whores brought men into the yard.

Observer,......What Blotchy may have thought could happen in that room cannot be known, but based on Marys track record at that location, and the witnesses that night, all she may have done is entertained him. He could have been a stranger before she had a million ales, but he became a close enough acquaintance to sing to in her own room....so maybe they were fast friends.

This thread by its wording wonders whether we have only 1 murder indoors, or why we have only 1 of 5 murders indoors....either way, as is clear by a Canonical Group, at least 80% of the murders were not indoors. With ample opportunities to have done a Millers Court type crime at any time that whole Fall, or to use an abandoned building.

At least one man wanted to cut women into smaller bits at that time....he knew that to do so would mean he would have to keep the remains somewhere so he could complete his grisly task.....and thats what he did apparently. His needs and requirements neccessitated indoors killings, or at least, indoor mutilations.

If Jack wanted so desperately to cut a woman to bits also, which the killer in room 13 seems to have on his mind primarily....then why did he wait 2 1/2 months and kill 4 women outdoors first? He had the exact same problem as Torso Man if that was the case....yet he lacked the brain power to figure out that he had to bring the bodies indoors so he could privately mutilate at his discretion?

So....Jack the cunning killer is really far less intelligent or capable than Torso Man? Well.....seems he couldnt quite get the hang of decapitation either.......so who knows?

Best regards all.

[Observer]

Hi Cap'n

Regardless of the arrangement Mary Kelly had with Blotchy he was obvoiously a stranger to her, or at least a very casual acquaintance, otherwise (due to his distinctive features) the police would have picked him up.

I believe he was a punter, paying with beer instead of money.

Observer

[Cap'n Jack]

One has to take into account that some of the witnesses were lying about the movements of people in and out of the yard that night... if you look at the differences between the original statements made to the police, and then the statements made at inquest, you will see what I mean.
To accept that every man who entered Kelly's room that night was a 'client' is a very dodgy and unsound premise leading to a blinkered view of the actual circumstances of her murder. It is highly likely that the 'blotchy' faced man was providing Kelly with alcohol, and that she was the 'client' and not he.

[The Good Michael]

Added to which, the Ripper was standing directly in line with the back door, and - if the general layout of the houses was the same - a communal lavatory at the bottom of the yard.

Right. And that communal lavatory has me believing people were coming and "going" all the time with not a second thought directed at them. The tenants at both places would have been used to the sounds of footsteps at all hours of the night i should think, and not have thought about it at all.

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Secondly, the yard in Hanbury Street wasn't dark at 5.30 am, as the sun had risen that morning at 5.25 am and people were about to rise too...

Added to which, the Ripper was standing directly in line with the back door, and - if the general layout of the houses was the same - a communal lavatory at the bottom of the yard.

[FrankO]

..., but all the places you mentioned have the same qualities....they were dark and deserted at the time. Bucks Row, 29 Hanbury and Mitre Square......not one person in any of those venues other than the killer and his prey.

Hi again Michael,

I have a couple of remarks here, too.

First, like Gareth wrote, Miller's Court does fit the bill. There were only 3 women who entered or left the court between 11.45 pm and 3 am. By the time she was probably killed, like in the other cases, most people were asleep or trying to sleep, nobody noticed anything suspicious, nobody was there to see him leave.

Secondly, the yard in Hanbury Street wasn't dark at 5.30 am, as the sun had risen that morning at 5.25 am and people were about to rise too. I'd say that in that respect Chapman's murder was significantly different to the other murders.

Goodnight Michael,
Frank

[FrankO]

Youve made some strong assumptions that are guiding you....some like the line that Blotchy is proof of a client in the room. When we know she sang for the better part of an hour and a quarter and that her lights were doused 15 minutes later, that would mean he sat and listened to singing for all that time when he came there for sex.

Hi Mike,

I have a couple of remarks about MJK and Mr. Blotchy Face. Even though it seems MJK was singing the bigger part of the time between about 11.45 pm and ca. 1 am, it doesn't mean that she couldn't have serviced Mr. BF anyway. All it would have taken is 5 minutes of no singing (or even less) to pull it off. Fact remains that, except for the singing, we don’t know what happened and therefore a lot of things could have happened. We have no indications of anything. As far as I’m concerned, Mr BF could have been out 20 minutes after he’d entered the room.

Secondly, another fact that remains is that MJK took a man back to her room with her and that he seems to have been a relative stranger. Cox didn’t know him and his description apparently didn’t ring a bell with anybody else. If he wasn’t the Ripper, then I don’t see any compelling reason to believe why she couldn’t have picked him up in similar fashion later that night.

Cheers,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

No

Don't you "no" people, when what they say is perfectly true, as what I said in my post certainly was.

and we know that at least 2 women

Two women! Quick, get the barricades out! Oh, wait - don't bother: they're both shagged out, and can't do much harm... furthermore, neither is paying particular attention to Kelly's room... oh, and both were probably safely out of the way when the killer made his move. Panic over.

enter that courtyard via that tunnel after midnight, one multiple times..

Three times, Mike - not "multiple times" at all. Let's please stick to the facts, which show that Miller's Court, at the time of Kelly's death, was most definitely not as "crowded" a prospect as 29 Hanbury Street was at the time of Annie Chapman's.