Jack's housing arrangements

[Archaic]

Hi, Christine; thanks for the reply. I agree it's possible, but I still feel that if Jack wanted to experiment in Cannibalism he was unlikely to do so with a diseased Whitechapel Prostitute.

We know that at least a couple them had Venereal Disease, and a man of that time would have known that Syphilis & all manner of diseases was to be expected in an older 2-Penny Unfortunate... so don't you think he'd be quite unlikely to wish to eat their female sexual organs?? (Ditto for the piece of bladder.)

I suppose it depends to some extent on how overtly "crazy" he was. I think he was a little more careful than that, which is also why he managed to leave the crime scenes without being covered in blood.

But he took Mary's heart, so who knows?

[Christine]

Hello Archiac.

If Jack did eat body parts, it was probably for deviant sexual gratification, not because he liked the taste. Jeffery Dahlmer did this, and I think Gein is believed to have done so also. In any case the modern psychological view is that he was getting some sort of sexual gratification from the whole process, but of course we don't know exactly how.

[Archaic]

Hi, guys. I'm a bit surprised that so many believe Jack took human organs primarily because he wanted to eat them... I'm quite sure it was for Deviant Sexual purposes. Maybe he did once attempt to fry up a bit of Kidney, but then again, maybe he just want to up the shock factor by claiming to do so. I doubt we'll ever really know.

As regards the other organs, the female Uterus is generally considered to be the strongest muscle in the human body, which is why it can go from the size of a Pear to that of a Watermelon in 9 months, deliver a happy 10-lb. Baby, and then go back to Pear size. It's exceptionally "tough" and "rubbery", and I doubt there's any way to cook it which would render it even remotely palatable. So even if Jack had a nice electric crock-pot & a good BBQ recipe, eating a Uterus seems doubtful.

I hate to think about what Jack REALLY did with it, because it makes me feel ill, but if you take a moment to recall what Edmund Kemper & Ed Gein & others did with their "trophies"- such as having sexual relations with severed body parts and creating loathsome "personal wearing apparel"- I think that's closer to the mark.

And I agree with those who contend that these delightful pastimes would require privacy.
(By the way, I just decided to skip my lunch today. Bye.)

[Ben]

The latter, most probably, Christine.

Many lodgers remained out late, and the larger establishments would have seen many men coming and going at all hours of the night. Indeed, there would have been men going out to work before the killer had even struck on some nights. The chances of him being noticed, especially, was very slim.

[Christine]

Sheer numbers would mitigate against the curiosity factor, Shelley.

The greater the number of lodgers, the fewer the chances of one particular individual being singled out for random scrutiny. There wasn't really any "act" to get "caught in" by the time he returned to his lodgings anyway, unless he was conspicuously bloodstained, or if he had his trophies on proud display. Otherwise, he was a face in the crowd; a needle in a haystrack.

Regards,
Ben

I don't know Ben, given the intense public interest in the case, the guy who stayed out late and came in to the common room all sweaty and with dark stains on his jacket would likely be noticed. On the other hand, given the large number of police reports which essentially amounted to nothing more than that, it might not have made much difference.

[Ben]

i'm pretty sure if he was a lodging house guy in a ward, he would have been caught out in his act and pretty quickly, as theft and curiosity was not uncommon.

Sheer numbers would mitigate against the curiosity factor, Shelley.

The greater the number of lodgers, the fewer the chances of one particular individual being singled out for random scrutiny. There wasn't really any "act" to get "caught in" by the time he returned to his lodgings anyway, unless he was conspicuously bloodstained, or if he had his trophies on proud display. Otherwise, he was a face in the crowd; a needle in a haystrack.

Regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

Hi Sam,

From Docklands Museum, which the Peabody Trust lent some items to for the recent show:

"By 1888 the Trust owned 5,000 dwellings housing 20,000 people.

The Trust's oldest estate was built in Spitalfields in 1864, and this was close to where some of Jack the Ripper's victims were murdered. The estate no longer belongs to the Trust but the buildings are still standing. Two other large Peabody estates were also built in east London in the 19th century."

I believe that refers to the one up Commercial St at White Lion St. Then there is the Glasshouse Street one. What is the location of the third Peabody estate in EE at that time?

Roy

Roy,
That's interesting, as i had a feeling that it was possible that Commercial St was were Jack was headed for after the killing of Eddowes ( Peabody trust buildings....Good call Sam), and it's a good location for where the murders took place. I would think that a room with a key and sole use was a more likely option for Jack, i'm pretty sure if he was a lodging house guy in a ward, he would have been caught out in his act and pretty quickly, as theft and curiosity was not uncommon.
There was also an increase in wages in the Victorian era, so a finding of low rents and comfortable earnings, a single room of sole use with a key to use sounds more than possible, and more likely to me.

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

Anyone was entitled to use the beds at any time providing they paid their doss - 4d for bed, 6d for a "cabin" - an arrangement that was compatible with the local populace who all worked regular hours. Other areas of the building, such as the large kitchen, were accessible without having to pass a doorman or pay any money.

On the question of paying his doss before drifting off to dreamland, if Jack - er, sorry, Hutch - told the police he was flat broke when lurking by the latest murder scene

Oh Hutchinson! Forgot all about him. Yes, in this instance, that would amount to a contradiction, since a claim to have been broke was heavily at odds with an ability to gain entrance to the Victoria Home beds "in the morning" whenever that was. To be fair to Hutchinson, he didn't strictly tell the police that he was broke. He just told them that that is what he told Kelly.

Best regards,
Ben

[caz]

Hi Ben,

Thanks. But is your 'no doubt' based on any documentary evidence of men being left to sleep the morning away?

We are not talking a daytime 'snooze', but possibly several hours, especially if Hutch - er, sorry, Jack - had spent most of the night before in a heightened state of anxiety and anticipation, before finally coming across a ripping opportunity and doing the business before the world and his wife were about theirs.

On the question of paying his doss before drifting off to dreamland, if Jack - er, sorry, Hutch - told the police he was flat broke when lurking by the latest murder scene, such a lie could have come back to haunt him if he had gaily handed over the required fee on the morning of the Lord Mayor's Show so he could make up for lost sleep.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

As long as he was capable of paying his doss, I've no doubt that a lodger would have been allowed to sleep off the night's excesses. The occupants of many of these establishments worked decidedly back-to-front hours, so daytime snoozes were always an option that many took advantage of. I'd imagine that doss-paying would still have been required, though. If it wasn't, everyone would work nights and sleep days without ever paying a penny to a lodging house deputy.

Best regards,
Ben

[caz]

Bumping (I think that's the term I'm after)

Anyone have an answer to the question in my final sentence?

I'm genuinely interested to know how many men would be left to sleep through the morning in a lodging house - because if the ripper returned to one after any of the murders my guess is that he would have been desperate to get his head down, if only for two or three hours.

I remember seaside bed and breakfast places back in the 60s, where they used to kick you out after breakies and you were not welcome back until the evening. That's partly what prompted my question.

Thank you.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Ben,

The salient point is that it's not a case of the deputies having been so swamped with customers after 2 in the morning that they'd all have been a blur.

Hi Sam,

Just read through this thread and wanted to make a couple of observations, apropos of little.

Apart from double event night, we're talking about customers entering a lodging house considerably later than 2.

If one of them had been Jack, I would expect him to have been physically and mentally rather exhausted once his adrenaline levels started to come down, especially if the lateness of the hour was a result of spending a long time during the night seeking out a suitable victim. Do you know if he would have been allowed to 'sleep it off' in peace if he got back around dawn or even later?

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Hi chaps,

Some very interesting extracts from Jack London's "People of the Abyss" on the subject of lodging houses:

http://www.classicreader.com/book/1035/21/

Note the following, in particular:

The little private doss-houses, as a rule, are unmitigated horrors. I have slept in them, and I know; but let me pass them by and confine myself to the bigger and better ones. Not far from Middlesex Street, Whitechapel, I entered such a house, a place inhabited almost entirely by working men. The entrance was by way of a flight of steps descending from the side-walk to what was properly the cellar of the building. Here were two large and gloomily lighted rooms, in which men cooked and ate. I had intended to do some cooking myself, but the smell of the place stole away my appetite, or, rather, wrested it from me; so I contented myself with watching other men cook and eat...

...Not only is the worker poorly fed, but he is filthily fed. I have stood outside a butcher-shop and watched a horde of speculative housewives turning over the trimmings and scraps and shreds of beef and mutton--dog-meat in the States...I kept my eye on one particularly offensive-looking bit of meat.

...On my return I paid fivepence for a "cabin," took my receipt for the same in the form of a huge brass check, and went upstairs to the smoking-room. (this was after he had entered the building and spent time in the kitchen)

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

The salient point is that it's not a case of the deputies having been so swamped with customers after 2 in the morning that they'd all have been a blur.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

Lodging-house keepers/deputies were asked specifically whether anyone had entered immediately following the murders

True, and even then it would then be a case of "Yep, I think so. A handful maybe, none of whom I paid much attention to, and none of whom I can name personally, that's if I'm not confusing it with another time of the night!"

Best regards,
Ben