Practicality or madness?

[John G]

Good question, Abby. I'll have to put some thought into that one.

On another note, I was reading a thread from years ago discussing the torsos and AP Wolfe made a rather interesting statement to think about whether or not one believes in a single killer or more than one for both series. He said of the Ripper and torsoman, "So while Jack killed one victim, the Embankment killer made many kills from one victim. just look at the reports that flow in as the body parts are found, from all points of the metropolis the police and surgeons are busy, and so is the press."


I've been thinking about the cases in this point of view, lately. It gives a new perspective of looking at them.

In relation to the Torso victims, do you think there are indications of an intention seeker, who was trying to taunt the police? For instance, body parts scattered over wide area, like "pieces of a puzzle", The Whitehall Torso deposited in the police building, Pinchin Street deposited in the heart of Ripper territory close to the anniversary of Chapman' death.

[John G]

There is absolutely nothing hinting at the Ripper and the Torso killer preying on victims with different victimologies. Once we get a classification of a Torso victim, lo and behold: we have a prostitute!

Really, John - the two series have an encyclopedia of similarities. It´s time that was acknowledged.

Aa you know, Christer, the depth of similarities this is something we disagree upon.

To list some of the dismiliarities.

JtR: disorganized. Operated within a very small geographical area, took extreme risks with his street atlacks, not distracted by witnesses.

Torso perpetrator: Organized. Probably abducted victims, operated over a much wider area, took steps to prevent victims being identified, avoided possible witnesses.

JtR: mutilator, who progressed into an eviscerator.

Torso perpetrator: dismemberer, only known to have eviscerated one victim. Possibly murdering in order to dismemberer, which would be consistent with an offensive/ defensive dismemberer profile.

JtR: some indications of lack of skill, i.e. Kelly murder scene. Dr Phillips clearly disagreed in respect of Chapman, but his conclusions are controversial.

Torso perpetrator: skilled, at least as regards the dismemberment process.

JtR: psychologically wedded to a very small geographical area, and probably lived within the location. Not prepared to extend the area in which he targeted victims even when it would have benefited him to do so. Probably didn' t have transport.

Torso perpetrator: Active over much wider area, so not geographically constrained in the same way. Almost certainly had transport. Epicentre of activities close to the Battersea area, suggesting that he may have lived around this location.

[John G]

There are indeed other differences, John. The area in which the Ripper was active only contains clustered crime scenes: crime scenes at which most of the crime-related activity takes place, the encounter, attack, homicide and all the post-mortem mutilation. The area of Torso Man is much bigger because he separated the scene where he encountered, attacked, killed and did all of his post-mortem cutting and sawing. A clustered crime scene is indicative of an impulsive or disorganised killer, if you will; the one who separates these locations is “symptomatic” for an organised killer. Or at least, this is something that Vernon Geberth would tell you. He’s a retired NYPD Lt. Commander and has written a number of books on homicide investigations.

Thanks for this Frank. And I agree, the indications are that the Torso perpetrator waa organized and JtR disorganized.

[Fisherman]

There are indeed other differences, John. The area in which the Ripper was active only contains clustered crime scenes: crime scenes at which most of the crime-related activity takes place, the encounter, attack, homicide and all the post-mortem mutilation. The area of Torso Man is much bigger because he separated the scene where he encountered, attacked, killed and did all of his post-mortem cutting and sawing. A clustered crime scene is indicative of an impulsive or disorganised killer, if you will; the one who separates these locations is “symptomatic” for an organised killer. Or at least, this is something that Vernon Geberth would tell you. He’s a retired NYPD Lt. Commander and has written a number of books on homicide investigations.

Not a single one of the differences is even remotely conclusive, and they must all give way to the very rare and unusual similarities. I´m afraid that remains.

Yes, in the Torso series the murder scenes and the dumping scenes were separated. But it is only if we make the assumption that the Ripper could not have dumped his bodies elsewhere if he had had the need that this becomes of interest. Once again - if the torso victims were killed in a spot that could be linked to the killer, then there was a need to remove the bodies from that spot. Once again, if the same killer chose to kill in the streets, then there would be no need to remove the bodies afterwards. It is a VERY easy equation that entirely allows us to see how a perceived difference in mindset may in fact be something totally different - a purely practical measure.
This is where so much goes wrong when people reason that there were two killers: they insert different mindsets into their thought-up killers, they divide them into categories that are not compatible with each other. But it is pure invention.

Yes, disorganized killers will often leave clustered crime scenes behind. IF, that is, they leave them at all. Many choose not to and are found with their victims. The fewest of them are silent killers. They are not as likely as organized killers to remove the murder weapon from the scene together with any other evidence that could be used to catch them.
Plus, we of course do NOT know that the Ripper struck where he found his prey, the way disorganized killers will normally do. Instead, it seems that he may have used a ruse, feigning to be a punter and following his victims to secluded places, chosen by them. Alternatively directing them to such places. And that is anything but disorganized behavior.

I´m sure that more differences can be listed.

I am equally sure that they will not in the slightest alter the list of similarities that points out, beyond reasonable doubt, that we are looking at a single killer. Until we can make that list of similarities go away, no inconclusive difference - or no amount of inconclusive differences - will have any real impact.

[FrankO]

There are, of course, numerous other differences. Frank's map highlights just how small the area in which JtR was active actually was, i.e. in comparison to the much wider area where the Torso perpetrator, if indeed there was a single perpetrator, was active.

There are indeed other differences, John. The area in which the Ripper was active only contains clustered crime scenes: crime scenes at which most of the crime-related activity takes place, the encounter, attack, homicide and all the post-mortem mutilation. The area of Torso Man is much bigger because he separated the scene where he encountered, attacked, killed and did all of his post-mortem cutting and sawing. A clustered crime scene is indicative of an impulsive or disorganised killer, if you will; the one who separates these locations is “symptomatic” for an organised killer. Or at least, this is something that Vernon Geberth would tell you. He’s a retired NYPD Lt. Commander and has written a number of books on homicide investigations.