Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How did JtR see in the dark?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How did JtR see in the dark?

    In the Whitechapel murders, we have a problem that requires a solution. A solution which may be a clue. That problem is over poor lighting conditions and how JtR could have operated in darkness.

    First of all, did he, in fact, work in total darkness or was there some available light? Do the weather conditions even provide us with the opportunity of intermittent moonlight? Is the claim he worked in the dark supported by the evidence? Questions like these.

    Tabram's body was probably not even seen by many passersby on the stairwell landing because it was so dark.

    Nichols body was found in such a dark spot that her wounds could not even be clearly seen. However wasn't there a street lamp somewhere nearby?

    Chapman's body was in a back garden. Was there enough light from the houses around to see her? Seems maybe not given the fence and corner where she was found.

    Stride's body was found in darkness and took a candle to see the wounds. Even Diemshutz's match wasn't sufficient.

    Eddowes' body was found in darkness in Mitre sq. Was there enough light from the buildings around?

    Kelly's body was found in a room which had a fireplace which was recently used. Seems JtR found light from this fire.

    The whole light issue is a mystery. What is the best explanation put forward for this fiend with night vision and a healthy diet of carrots for vitamin A?
    Bona fide canonical and then some.

  • #2
    I've no interest in Tabram
    The others, bar Stride, were deposited .
    It's the only sensible solution .
    There was no light in Buck's row .
    If you believe Long or Cadosche then if Chapman killed on the spot it happened in broad daylight which is bizarre .
    You're right about Dutfields yard so it should go without saying that the conditions were the same up the road 45 mins later ...... there was no light in Mitre Square .There were two lamps in the square but only one was working properly and was too far away from the body to be of any use .
    It was overcast and raining , no moonlight at all.
    They weren't killed where found other than stride
    Last edited by packers stem; 11-01-2018, 02:32 AM.
    You can lead a horse to water.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Batman View Post
      In the Whitechapel murders, we have a problem that requires a solution. A solution which may be a clue. That problem is over poor lighting conditions and how JtR could have operated in darkness.
      Mitre Square was arguably the darkest canonical murder site of all. However, Doctor Sequeira, who attended Eddowes, said that there was sufficient light for the killer to perform the mutilations.
      Do the weather conditions even provide us with the opportunity of intermittent moonlight?
      Certainly a possibility with Nichols; the moon was well above the horizon, nearly half-full (41%) and there was only intermittent (50%) cloud cover. The very thin crescent moon was below the horizon during Chapman's likely time of death - but this may be academic, as dawn was breaking and there was only 30% cloud cover. The (39%) moon was only a few degrees above the horizon in Stride's and Eddowes' case, but cloud cover was total. There was also heavy cloud cover on the night of Kelly's death, moreover the (37%) moon was in the Southern Hemisphere, thus invisible from London. (For what it's worth, the moon was also below the horizon for Tabram.)

      Here's a graphical summary I produced some years ago, using the "KStars" astronomy software to plot the position and phase of the moon at the relevant times of the C5 victims' deaths. Cloud cover data for London was obtained from weather reports here on Casebook:
      Attached Files
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by packers stem View Post
        I've no interest in Tabram
        The others, bar Stride, were deposited .
        It's the only sensible solution .
        There was no light in Buck's row .
        If you believe Long or Cadosche then if Chapman killed on the spot it happened in broad daylight which is bizarre .
        You're right about Dutfields yard so it should go without saying that the conditions were the same up the road 45 mins later ...... there was no light in Mitre Square .There were two lamps in the square but only one was working properly and was too far away from the body to be of any use .
        It was overcast and raining , no moonlight at all.
        They weren't killed where found other than stride
        So this explanation has them being murdered under some lighting conditions elsewhere and then deposited away from that place later. However wouldn't JtR have been able to carry out everything he wanted from Nichols onwards? Surely operating on Eddowes would have resulted in far less smash and grab and less facial cut randomness to his art? Half ears cut off?

        This image suggests Eddowes was found in a considerable pool of blood around here.

        Also, why carry Chapman through a house to dump her in the backyard?
        Bona fide canonical and then some.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by packers stem View Post
          If you believe Long or Cadosche then if Chapman killed on the spot it happened in broad daylight which is bizarre
          It was in the light of dawn, sunrise being at 5:23, so not quite broad daylight to be precise.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Mitre Square was arguably the darkest canonical murder site of all. However, Doctor Sequeira, who attended Eddowes, said that there was sufficient light for the killer to perform the mutilations.
            Certainly a possibility with Nichols; the moon was well above the horizon, nearly half-full (41%) and there was only intermittent (50%) cloud cover. The very thin crescent moon was below the horizon during Chapman's likely time of death - but this may be academic, as dawn was breaking and there was only 30% cloud cover. The (39%) moon was only a few degrees above the horizon in Stride's and Eddowes' case, but cloud cover was total. There was also heavy cloud cover on the night of Kelly's death, moreover the (37%) moon was in the Southern Hemisphere, thus invisible from London. (For what it's worth, the moon was also below the horizon for Tabram.)

            Here's a graphical summary I produced some years ago, using the "KStars" astronomy software to plot the position and phase of the moon at the relevant times of the C5 victims' deaths. Cloud cover data for London was obtained from weather reports here on Casebook:
            Good post Gareth .
            Only you really have to forget about Sequeira as some sort of evidence .
            He was not in the square prior to the arrival of police lamps .
            And at 5.25 on Sept 8th it was fully daylight .
            Dawn twilight would have begun around 30-45 minutes beforehand ..... hence why Richardson said "it was not quite light " clearly meaning it had started at that point
            You can lead a horse to water.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              It was in the light of dawn, sunrise being at 5:23, so not quite broad daylight to be precise.
              Sunrise 5.25
              Dawn 4.50
              It's searchable
              Either way it was light when Cadosche went for a gypsys and starting to get light when Richardson went into the yard
              You can lead a horse to water.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                Only you really have to forget about Sequeira as some sort of evidence .
                He was not in the square prior to the arrival of police lamps .
                I'm sure Sequeira was smart enough to take that into account. Besides, he was very familiar with the location:

                "Crawford: You are acquainted with this locality, are you not?

                Sequeira: Yes, very well; where the body was found would be the darkest corner. There would have been sufficient light, though, to admit of the infliction of the injuries without the aid of any additional light."
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by packers stem View Post
                  Sunrise 5.25
                  Dawn 4.50
                  It's searchable
                  I know. That's where I got the info from, albeit I misread the line above (7th August) to arrive at 5:23 - besides, 5:23 or 5:25 is neither here nor there, when one remembers that the Long/Cadoche timings are only approximate. Suffice to say that the sun had only just risen, and would have been very low on the eastern horizon, probably not having cleared the roofs of East London at the time. So, whilst it wasn't "broad daylight", there'd have been plenty of dawn light for the killer to work with.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    I'm sure Sequeira was smart enough to take that into account. Besides, he was very familiar with the location:

                    "Crawford: You are acquainted with this locality, are you not?

                    Sequeira: Yes, very well; where the body was found would be the darkest corner. There would have been sufficient light, though, to admit of the infliction of the injuries without the aid of any additional light."
                    Note the term "infliction of the injuries" no mention of the organ removals or the time needed to effect the removals.. and he is right, you don't need a great deal of light to cut someones throat or to rip open an abdomen.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      I know. That's where I got the info from, albeit I misread the line above (7th August) to arrive at 5:23 - besides, 5:23 or 5:25 is neither here nor there, when one remembers that the Long/Cadoche timings are only approximate. Suffice to say that the sun had only just risen, and would have been very low on the eastern horizon, probably not having cleared the roofs of East London at the time. So, whilst it wasn't "broad daylight", there'd have been plenty of dawn light for the killer to work with.
                      But there is no conclusive evidence to show she was killed at that time. Phillips suggests otherwise.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        I'm sure Sequeira was smart enough to take that into account. Besides, he was very familiar with the location:

                        "Crawford: You are acquainted with this locality, are you not?

                        Sequeira: Yes, very well; where the body was found would be the darkest corner. There would have been sufficient light, though, to admit of the infliction of the injuries without the aid of any additional light."
                        Been through this so many times .
                        He can't give a persepective on lighting if he wasn't there .
                        He also was a GP and not a surgeon , and of little experience .I doubt his knowledge of difficulty of kidney removal in that lighting was high up.the list .
                        How often would he have walked throuh the square with no moonlight and stood in that corner .
                        It means absolutely nothing .
                        It's Morris he should have asked not Sequeira .... oh wait .... Morris went back in to get his lamp ... because he knew how dark it would be .
                        Strange that
                        You can lead a horse to water.....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                          But there is no conclusive evidence to show she was killed at that time. Phillips suggests otherwise.

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                          I agree
                          I believe she was killed earlier and elsewhere or Richardson couldn't have failed to see her
                          Last edited by packers stem; 11-01-2018, 03:05 AM.
                          You can lead a horse to water.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Batman View Post
                            So this explanation has them being murdered under some lighting conditions elsewhere and then deposited away from that place later. However wouldn't JtR have been able to carry out everything he wanted from Nichols onwards? Surely operating on Eddowes would have resulted in far less smash and grab and less facial cut randomness to his art? Half ears cut off?

                            This image suggests Eddowes was found in a considerable pool of blood around here.

                            Also, why carry Chapman through a house to dump her in the backyard?
                            That pool of blood you mention in the sketch is considerably smaller than you believe.
                            It was just one side of the neck and ran under the neck because of the pavement. A wine glass full would make that pool
                            Secondly you have to question the accuracy .
                            Eddowes was wearing three skirts and a petticoat according to the itinerary, so where are they ?
                            Last edited by packers stem; 11-01-2018, 03:20 AM.
                            You can lead a horse to water.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                              But there is no conclusive evidence to show she was killed at that time. Phillips suggests otherwise.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                              We know that, but that's a whole other topic. If we are to keep this thread focused on the murders as a whole, rather than disappearing down a Chapman rabbit-hole, it would be better to accept the usually accepted timings, if only for the sake of argument.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X