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Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature?

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  • Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature?

    There has been some recent ideas bandied about on the torso thread and elsewhere that perhaps the ripper and torso crimes (moreso on the torso crimes) may have been totally non sexual in nature. As in the motive was more akin to a crazy doctor type scenario-morbid curiosity, experimentation type thing.

    Or perhaps just anger, revenge, dehumanizing the victims?

    What are folks thoughts in this?
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-14-2018, 05:30 AM.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

  • #2
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    There has been some recent ideas bandied about on the torso thread and elsewhere that perhaps the ripper and torso crimes (moreso on the torso crimes) may have been totally non sexual in nature. As in the motive was more akin to a crazy doctor type scenario-morbid curiosity, experimentation type thing.

    Or perhaps just anger, revenge, dehumanizing the victims?

    What are folks thoughts in this?
    I think they were sex crimes, but the only aspect that interested the killer was total control, owning the bodies, being at liberty to do whatever he wanted to with them.

    A wish for control is very often the force behind sexual serial killings.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
      I think they were sex crimes, but the only aspect that interested the killer was total control, owning the bodies, being at liberty to do whatever he wanted to with them.

      A wish for control is very often the force behind sexual serial killings.
      Hi Fish
      Thanks! Do you think there was any overt sexual nature to either though? As in the killer "got off" sexually in any way? and if so-how and when?
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #4
        Iím unsure how certain we can be Abby. Iíve always suspected that they were though, with control being a strong element as Fish said. I donít think that we can rule out simple hatred of women in general or prostitutes specifically though. The Ripper or TK (or both - or TorsoRipper [yes, I doubt but also admit the possibility]) might have been on a mission to rid the streets of sin (sounds a bit melodramatic I admit, but itís possible.)
        The attacking of the genital and womb areas might point to a sexual motive or to someone that sees those Ďregionsí as the cause of problems. Even the staging of the women, skirts lifted legs spread, might point at sexual or they could be just the killer saying ďlook at the reward for sinĒ or something like it.
        In short I donít know how we can tip the balance of likelihoodís either way? Many psychologists and profilers have looked at the case though, is there rough % view either way?
        Regards

        Herlock






        "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

        Comment


        • #5
          I would say though that the motive is possibly (and Iíll only go that far) more difficult to define in TKís murders. I only suggest this because we know that all of the rippers victims were prostitutes but I donít think thatís certain in Torsoís case unless Iím mistaken of course. Then thereís the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual Ďevents.í Iím still on the fence to some extent though.
          Regards

          Herlock






          "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            I would say though that the motive is possibly (and Iíll only go that far) more difficult to define in TKís murders. I only suggest this because we know that all of the rippers victims were prostitutes but I donít think thatís certain in Torsoís case unless Iím mistaken of course. Then thereís the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual Ďevents.í Iím still on the fence to some extent though.
            Hi herlock
            Some possibles for non sexual motive:

            Religious zealot killing unclean sinning women
            Crazy doctor type experimenting
            Pissed off syphiless loser exacting revenge
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #7
              As has been stated, our idea of what constitutes sexual or non-sexual could very well differ from the killer's perspective.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • #8
                My opinion...

                The choice of victim.
                Prostitution aside, The thing they also had in common with each other was being hopelessly drunk and reckless.
                This is what made them easy pickings.

                Depending on the motive, the killings were possibly sexual due to the intensity of the act.
                They wouldnít be despatched in that way if not for ritual, gain or gratification.
                If you kill another human in that way for pleasure then itís sexual, itís just in a manor that right minded people canít comprehend.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Hi herlock
                  Some possibles for non sexual motive:

                  Religious zealot killing unclean sinning women
                  Crazy doctor type experimenting
                  Pissed off syphiless loser exacting revenge
                  They all sound like plots for a new Ripper movie but I think that theyíre all possibles.

                  Maybe someone who found out that his beloved mother was a prostitute or had an affair.
                  Regards

                  Herlock






                  "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    Then thereís the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual Ďevents.í
                    Not so in the Torso cases. If the perpetrator(s) of those intended a sexual display, they'd have kept the legs on and spread them apart.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, GŲtzendšmmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Not so in the Torso cases. If the perpetrator(s) of those intended a sexual display, they'd have kept the legs on and spread them apart.
                      You canít get more Ďspread apartí than a couple of miles Gareth
                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The thought had occurred to me, Herlock
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, GŲtzendšmmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think some murders within these 2 groups do not show any signs that the nature of the crime was at all sexual. I believe Annies murder seems almost clinical in comparison, for one. Primarily, actions taken to achieve an objective. It would seem unlikely that whomever killed Polly would have had anything intimate and sexual on his mind, the location doesn't seem the proper venue for it. In Mitre Square, if we are to believe Lawende's sighting was indeed of Kate, he had to work fast to be out of the square by Harveys look in, or Watkins next pass. No time to get too preoccupied.

                          The Torso murders were likely of that ilk though. They were done in private. Perhaps over a matter of days, certainly of many hours. We never found the entirety of the remains. They were much younger women than most of the Canonical Group.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                            I think some murders within these 2 groups do not show any signs that the nature of the crime was at all sexual. I believe Annies murder seems almost clinical in comparison, for one. Primarily, actions taken to achieve an objective. It would seem unlikely that whomever killed Polly would have had anything intimate and sexual on his mind, the location doesn't seem the proper venue for it. In Mitre Square, if we are to believe Lawende's sighting was indeed of Kate, he had to work fast to be out of the square by Harveys look in, or Watkins next pass. No time to get too preoccupied.

                            The Torso murders were likely of that ilk though. They were done in private. Perhaps over a matter of days, certainly of many hours. We never found the entirety of the remains. They were much younger women than most of the Canonical Group.
                            Thanks Michael-interesting points.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You could argue that all serial killings are psychosexually motivated. That's why serial killers almost invariably target the gender they are sexually attracted to.

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