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JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis

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  • #31
    Originally posted by spyglass View Post
    Hi,
    Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
    Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

    Regards
    That's an interesting suggestion spyglass, and only they would know her release time. If she had arranged a meeting with someone, for example, then her incarceration and the unknown time of release would have put a big kink in her plans. Unless either she was released in time to make that meeting, or that the person waiting was informed about her whereabouts and delay.

    What if she was released so that the police could follow her, where she went and who she was to meet, and maybe cordon off that area to ensure that this person couldn't evade them when leaving. The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
    Michael Richards

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
      The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
      This looks to me like a circular argument. The closest people to the scene of the crime were only "all" police officers if an assumption is made that the killer was one of them.
      Last edited by Bridewell; 07-10-2018, 09:12 AM.
      "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
        This looks to me like a circular argument. The closest people to the scene of the crime were only "all" police officers if an assumption is made that the killer was one of them.
        I'm actually of the belief that the proximity of all those policemen, perhaps excluding Morris, had more to do with creating a net. I didn't intend to infer that one of them must have been the murderer at all. I did intend to infer that they expected an attack on Kate that night, which might be a result of intelligence that she intended to name a killer she believed did the prior murders. Something that may or may not have been true, she may have thought of someone who was guilty of crimes but not the ones she imagined.

        Maybe someone Irish, which makes Mitre Square an interesting choice...I believe it was at one time used by self rule factions?
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          I'm actually of the belief that the proximity of all those policemen, perhaps excluding Morris, had more to do with creating a net. I didn't intend to infer that one of them must have been the murderer at all. I did intend to infer that they expected an attack on Kate that night, which might be a result of intelligence that she intended to name a killer she believed did the prior murders. Something that may or may not have been true, she may have thought of someone who was guilty of crimes but not the ones she imagined.

          Maybe someone Irish, which makes Mitre Square an interesting choice...I believe it was at one time used by self rule factions?
          I've clearly mistaken your meaning then, Michael. Apologies.

          If she intended to name a killer though, why would she not do it before leaving the police station? She'd been out of London hopping for a while, so perhaps may have simply had knowledge that the man referred to in the press as Leather Apron was John Pizer?
          "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by spyglass View Post
            Hi,
            Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
            Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

            Regards
            or a spectator to her arrest. Perhaps someone witnessed the incident and waited for her to be released. Could be a policeman also who followed her. The nothing makes a lot more sense when you apply that meaning and it also narrows down the suspect pool.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              I've clearly mistaken your meaning then, Michael. Apologies.

              If she intended to name a killer though, why would she not do it before leaving the police station? She'd been out of London hopping for a while, so perhaps may have simply had knowledge that the man referred to in the press as Leather Apron was John Pizer?
              I think its because her information held no monetary value, or at least none she was willing to settle for, after she gave it to the Police. She might have been negotiating for her silence that afternoon and later that night outside the square.

              Interesting you mentioned Pizer, because Ive never believed that story, and I found the venue in which it was addressed was almost certainly used just to calm the public.
              Michael Richards

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by spyglass View Post
                Hi,
                Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
                Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

                Regards
                At that time a crowd outside No. 29 in the High Street attracted the attention of PC Louis Robinson 931. Pushing his way to its centre he found a woman lying drunk on the pavement. The constable picked her up and leaned her against the shutters of No. 29 but she slipped sideways. Then, summoning PC George Simmonds 959 to his assistance, he managed to get her to Bishopsgate Street Police Station. James Byfield, the station sergeant, remembered the woman being brought in, supported between two constables, at about 8.45. She smelt strongly of drink. When they enquired her name she replied: ‘Nothing.’

                Sugden, Philip. The Complete History of Jack the Ripper (Kindle Locations 5113-5117). Little, Brown Book Group.

                Near a bloody portion of her apron is the GSG.

                "The Juwes [sic] are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."

                or whatever version but "blamed for nothing" is in them all.

                If there is a connection then maybe for the time period JtR went 'missing' between the murder and the GSG apron dump he just went back to Bishopsgate Street Police Station before moving on.

                Which means he could be one of those officers there.
                Bona fide canonical and then some.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Batman View Post
                  If there is a connection then maybe for the time period JtR went 'missing' between the murder and the GSG apron dump he just went back to Bishopsgate Street Police Station before moving on.
                  Any explanation for what he did with the piece of blood and faeces-stained apron in the meantime? (Always assuming that Long had actually checked the stairwell on his previous circuit and there was actually any significant time period between the murder and the off-loading of the apron piece).

                  Which means he could be one of those officers there.
                  Or the apron piece could have been dumped by the killer as he fled the scene in the opposite direction to Bishopsgate Police Station - which is considerably more likely than a City PC leaving the square mile and going into another Force area armed with incriminating evidence.
                  "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    That's an interesting suggestion spyglass, and only they would know her release time. If she had arranged a meeting with someone, for example, then her incarceration and the unknown time of release would have put a big kink in her plans. Unless either she was released in time to make that meeting, or that the person waiting was informed about her whereabouts and delay.

                    What if she was released so that the police could follow her, where she went and who she was to meet, and maybe cordon off that area to ensure that this person couldn't evade them when leaving. The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
                    Harvey wouldn't have been able to check the far corner of Mitre Square from Church Passage with a bulls-eye lamp and wouldn't have been permitted to leave his beat to do so. He wasn't required to check it anyway as Mitre Square was on an adjoining beat and the responsibility of another officer. (That's not to say he would have been justified in ignoring anything sinister that he did see, but there's nothing to indicate that he did any such thing.

                    Watkin wasn't required to enter the square at any specific time, just to check it as he passed through on each circuit. Fixed beats were a bad idea because they could be anticipated by the observant villain even when, as on this occasion, they were being worked left-handed. Whilst fixed beats were a strategic blunder by the police commanders of that era it doesn't constitute evidence that JtR was a police officer.
                    Last edited by Bridewell; 09-21-2018, 02:22 PM.
                    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                      Any explanation for what he did with the piece of blood and faeces-stained apron in the meantime? (Always assuming that Long had actually checked the stairwell on his previous circuit and there was actually any significant time period between the murder and the off-loading of the apron piece).

                      Or the apron piece could have been dumped by the killer as he fled the scene in the opposite direction to Bishopsgate Police Station - which is considerably more likely than a City PC leaving the square mile and going into another Force area armed with incriminating evidence.
                      https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7940

                      50 minute gap between the murder of Eddowes and the discovery of the GSG.

                      30 minute gap between Long coming back to the place he found the apron in.

                      This suggests JtR did not flee quickly to GS.

                      Why would he go back if he was LE?

                      Probably told them he was going out for a bit. Maybe even had reason to do so.

                      10 min walk to Mitre square. 10 min back to Station. Then go down GS, not up it, on the way home.
                      Bona fide canonical and then some.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Busy Beaver View Post
                        The first person I suspected to be the Ripper was a policeman, as it was so strange how many of them were out on the streets patrolling like there was no tomorrow, but the Ripper still managed to kill. If the Ripper was a policeman or had any connection to the Police, then they most likely left the job or had been dismissed before the killings began. Someone on the boards a few years back had also suggested that Jack may have been an employee of the Transport or Railway Police and made his escape via railway lines/tracks. I guess this is still up for discussion/debate.

                        BB
                        The autumn or terror could be explained by more LE out on the beat and if JtR was LE then he could have been one of them and in the perfect position to carry out a string of attacks over a short period of time.

                        So what changed after the murder of Mary Kelly? He seemed to have 'stopped' or at least slowed down.
                        Bona fide canonical and then some.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Nice fimd suspect.
                          Absolutely seems like this guy is suspicious. I didnt see were it said he had florid complextion though.
                          Anyone find anything else on george compton?
                          I wonder if that could be George Chapman.
                          Bona fide canonical and then some.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Batman View Post
                            The autumn or terror could be explained by more LE out on the beat and if JtR was LE then he could have been one of them and in the perfect position to carry out a string of attacks over a short period of time.
                            The Autumn of Terror was something the police responded to by greatly adding to the number of officers on the streets. They didn't cause the Autumn of Terror so they can't be the explanation for it.
                            "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                              The Autumn of Terror was something the police responded to by greatly adding to the number of officers on the streets. They didn't cause the Autumn of Terror so they can't be the explanation for it.
                              If you go back to the OP I have referenced how Joseph James DeAngelo was LE and the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker. During the EAR crimes, there was an increase in police presence. He was LE. When he was fired from LE, the number of crimes he was able to commit completely dropped off the radar. He turned to murder, but his murders were spread over a five-six year period as opposed to the tens of dozens of rapes and hundreds of stalking incidents as the EAR, while being LE. The only conclusion we can draw from this was that as LE he was enabled to commit more crimes than when he wasn't LE.

                              So the word enable would be a much better word than causation in this example and I would say the same when applying the hypothesis to JtR. If LE, they didn't cause it, but if JtR was LE, then it may have enabled him.

                              Imagine for example if he knew all the beats and stakeouts.

                              He could vanish into the night. One step ahead all the time. Could take any risk he wanted.
                              Bona fide canonical and then some.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Same Blotchy seen by Cox with Mary Kelly. Working with police.

                                The Echo 17 Nov 1888

                                EAST END ATROCITIES
                                THE STEPNEY CLERK'S STATEMENT.
                                The only news to hand serves to explain another of those mysterious stories which have increased the popular excitement. The police now state that the man who aroused the suspicion of Mr. Galloway, the Stepney clerk, by frequently crossing and recrossing the road is a respectable citizen, and that he was, as a matter of fact, acting in concert with them in his "mysterious movements."
                                There is some news this morning, however, of the man "with the blotchy face and carroty moustache," He is averred to have been seen at a late hour, yesterday, in Battersea Park Road, at a period subsequent to that in which he is said to have been seen in Queen Victoria Street. The police were at once on the alert, but without any result.

                                ---

                                Ex-officer maybe? As in policeman.

                                Then there is the officer (although military) connection with Martha Tabram.
                                Last edited by Batman; 09-24-2018, 05:52 PM.
                                Bona fide canonical and then some.

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