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  • Smith and Tabram

    First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

    The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

    Thanks,
    Jmorty
    Last edited by Jmorty; 03-14-2018, 08:06 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jmorty View Post
    First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

    The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

    Thanks,
    Jmorty
    Hi Jmorty
    welcome to the nut house! Yes absolutely. and with Nichols we could see the evolution of a budding serial killer whos learning how to kill more quickly, quietly and efficiently.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #3
      Welcome Jmorty.

      One of the problems with this case, is that almost anything is possible.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        Very thoughtful post. I've always had strong feelings about the deaths of Emma Smith and Martha Tabram being connected to the following "canonical five".

        Comment


        • #5
          while I don't rule out emma smith, I think she is probably not a ripper victim though.

          The group attack and sexual assault angle throws me off.

          but I do have a canonical seven-I add tabram and McKenzie to the five.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes it does seem like he was learning !
            I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

            Pat..............................
            Last edited by Paddy; 03-15-2018, 02:04 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paddy View Post
              Yes it does seem like he was learning !
              I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

              Pat..............................
              Hi paddy
              Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

              I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #8
                Emma was attacked 130 years ago next Tuesday-R.I.P.
                This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

                Stan Reid

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Hi paddy
                  Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

                  I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.
                  Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

                  Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

                  I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.
                  Last edited by jerryd; 03-28-2018, 05:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                    Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

                    Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

                    I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.
                    Hi jerry
                    Thanks. The thing is we know that Emma was attacked by a gang. And no knife used. Tabram we don’t know about multiple people and the only evidence is that she was with one man prior to being found murdered. But the hiked skirt, use of knife targeting the throat and abdomen/privates leads me to conclude she was probably an early ripper victim.

                    Add to that the attack on mill wood earlier nearby with knife to abdomen and we can see a clear logical progression of a serial killer learning and evolving as he gains practice.

                    Even the use of possibly two knives on tab ram, which some think might point to a multiple person attack like smith, to me actually meshes with an evolving serial killer. As in—the attack on mill wood was with a smaller knife, one which the killer previously was accustomed to carrying all the time. Next time out he also brought a larger knife, both of which he used on tab ram.

                    It all fits to me pretty nicely with a natural progression:

                    Milllwod-small knife, abdomen targeted
                    Tabram- small and larger knife, throat and abdomen targeted
                    Nichols-large knife, throat cut, abdomen targeted
                    The rest with organ removal and more escalation etc.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Tabram- small and larger knife, throat and abdomen targeted"

                      Tabram sustained more (stab) wounds to the upper body, and even her abdominal wounds (again, stabs) were primarily to the upper abdomen.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jmorty View Post
                        First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

                        The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

                        Thanks,
                        Jmorty
                        Good points, mirroring to some extent, my own thoughts. I feel that Tabram was likely a Ripper victim. The killer, having struggled to killer, keep her quiet, etc., evolved in future murders to cutting the throat, thus avoiding the struggle and accompanying noise. I'm less convinced with Smith but the possibility exists, provided she wasn't honest about her attacker(s). However, proximity and timing may point to one man having done for Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, et al.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Even ignoring the reported gang with Smith, the nature of her attack rules her out as being a Ripper victim for me. The (limited) reporting of the injuries states blunt force trauma to the perineum resulting in a ruptured peritoneum and hence large (but not massive) blood loss and resultant death from peritonitis. In addition she had blunt force trauma to the face. This goes against the canonical five where there was minimal bruising in keeping with hand pressure. That she was a victim of a serious sexual assault resulting in her death is without question, but she just doesn't fit with the Ripper being the culprit.

                          Paul

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