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  • Indeed, Darryl. If someone had the luxury of a home, or at least a relatively private bolt-hole, in which they could safely kill and dismember their victims over a period of time, the idea that they'd take to the public streets in order to carry out very different murders in a handful of weeks is utterly, utterly absurd.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      Indeed, Darryl. If someone had the luxury of a home, or at least a relatively private bolt-hole, in which they could safely kill and dismember their victims over a period of time, the idea that they'd take to the public streets in order to carry out very different murders in a handful of weeks is utterly, utterly absurd.
      This is the crux of the debate for me Gareth. It’s simply not believable
      Regards

      Herlock






      "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
        The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.
        Could be, I just lean the other way. I see more similarities than differences and the idea of two post mortem mutilating body part removing prostitute serial killers running around the same time in the same city, especially at that time when serial murder was rare, is just too much of a coincidence to me.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          Why risk killing outdoors when you have access to private premises?
          The post-mortem mutilation of the torso victims was done in conjunction with chopping them into pieces, not as an end in itself.
          It is not the same location (the Ripper murders concentrated in a small part of the East End, the torso murders' focus - if it had any - in West London), nor the same time frame (the outdoor Ripper murders occurred in a short blitz of a few weeks, the torso murders on a leisurely basis over a long period of time). As to "victimology", prostitutes were, are, and always have been, easy meat for killers.

          Let's be precise about these things, folks.
          Precise, to your own definition sam? If you really want to be precise you could say the c5 were all done by a different hand due to there differences. Disagree if you want but stop using words like that against people who don’t agree with you.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            Precise, to your own definition sam?
            No, just precise.

            Whilst we see some "post mortem mutilations" in the JTR murders, what we see in the torso series is "dismemberment", not "mutilation".

            The "same location" does not apply when we're talking about two different districts (West/East End) separated by hundreds of streets and hundreds of thousands of residents.

            To believe/assert otherwise in either case is to be imprecise.
            Last edited by Sam Flynn; 03-30-2018, 05:46 AM.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              How do you know that the other torso murders weren't connected? ISTR that Fisherman and some others think that they were, and there's the rub; it's purely down to an interpretation, and often a very slack interpretation, of what is often patchy evidence.
              Gareth,

              The four that were linked were not linked by me, but the authorities at the time. The 1873,1874 and 1884 torsos could be linked to the series. Dr. Bond was involved with some, if not all, the earlier torso cases. At least the 1873 case that I know for sure off the top of my head. Why didn't he include them in the series?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                The trouble with the Thames torso murders is if the killer murdered in that fashion in a safe bolt hole why take the risk of going out onto the streets ? We know the murders spanned either side of JTR if it was one perpetrator he took enormous risks by changing his MO. Lets look at the C5, Polly, almost caught in the act. Annie, took a large risk in a backyard overlooked in almost daylight. Liz, very nearly caught in the act, and you could argue the same with Kate. Mary is the only one with a little bit of safety involved, and even that murder came with large risks, someone looking through the broken pane etc. If i was the killer after almost being caught/interrupted after Polly i would go back to my tried and trusted method.
                Hi Darryl
                Perhaps because he didn’t have access to his murder house but the urge was still there and he had to kill on the street. Or he was upping the thrill factor? Or he was unraveling mentally.

                Serial killers have been known to become sloppy, more risky, more unraveled at the end- kemper and bundy are two examples.

                Bundy went from high risk home invasion attacks, to well planned public ruses, back to home invasions.

                Totally different MO, due to circumstances, and killers mental state.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  No, just precise.

                  Whilst we see some "post mortem mutilations" in the JTR murders, what we see in the torso series is "dismemberment", not "mutilation".

                  The "same location" does not apply when we're talking about two different districts (West/East End) separated by hundreds of streets and hundreds of thousands of residents.

                  To believe/assert otherwise in either case is to be imprecise.

                  Nothing imprecise about these similarities:
                  Victomology
                  Same city
                  Same time period
                  Post mortem mutilation
                  Internal organs removed
                  Knife used
                  Abdominal flaps removed
                  Unsolved

                  Full stop. Nothing imprecise about it. Exactly the same.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    Indeed, or - quite possibly - more than two perpetrators... in either series.
                    More than two perpetrators in either series?

                    That’s laughable sam, and you lose all credibility with ridiculous statements like this. This is trevor Marriott level nonsense here.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                      But the 1873, 1874 and 1884 Torso killings bear far more resemblance to the other Torso killings than the C5.
                      I'm not ruling out the earlier torso finds in the series, personally. I was merely pointing out that the four linked torso cases (1887-1889) did overlap with the ripper killings.

                      In fact, I found this awhile back which shows the 1884 case had similarities to the 1873 case AND Eddowes. It also shows post mortem mutilation that seems unnecessary if the killer intended to dispose of remains anyway.

                      East London Press,
                      November 8,1884


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        Hi Darryl
                        Perhaps because he didn’t have access to his murder house but the urge was still there and he had to kill on the street. Or he was upping the thrill factor? Or he was unraveling mentally.
                        Bingo, Abby. I'm glad someone pointed out the obvious.

                        I think we're dealing with someone who lived in or around Whitechapel/Spitalfields. He carried out the Torso series from a bolthole further east but didn't have permanent access to it. However, he was forced onto the streets to satisfy his bloodlust.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          No, just precise.

                          Whilst we see some "post mortem mutilations" in the JTR murders, what we see in the torso series is "dismemberment", not "mutilation".

                          The "same location" does not apply when we're talking about two different districts (West/East End) separated by hundreds of streets and hundreds of thousands of residents.

                          To believe/assert otherwise in either case is to be imprecise.
                          Sam
                          Both series have extensive post mortem mutilations, including mtilations well above and beyond what was needed for just dismemberment in the torso case, including cutting The abdomen horizontally, removal of internal organs, and cutting away flesh of the stomach in flaps.

                          To state otherwise, as you keep doing, is just wrong. And frustratingly so.


                          It’s one thing if you don’t believe they were the same person, I by no means definitely think they were, but please stop with the blatant untruths.
                          Last edited by Abby Normal; 03-30-2018, 08:33 AM.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Nothing imprecise about these similarities:
                            Victomology
                            Same city
                            Same time period
                            Post mortem mutilation
                            Internal organs removed
                            Knife used
                            Abdominal flaps removed
                            Unsolved

                            Full stop. Nothing imprecise about it. Exactly the same.
                            The problem I see with this is that the Ripper murders were confined to such a small area -- almost as though the Ripper lacked mobility.

                            If both series were committed by the same person, then he/she had access to a safe location, the means to purchase the tools necessary to dismember bodies, and the means to move about the city in a much larger area. So WHY would the Ripper victims be confined to such a tiny, tiny area?

                            curious

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                              I'm not ruling out the earlier torso finds in the series, personally. I was merely pointing out that the four linked torso cases (1887-1889) did overlap with the ripper killings.

                              In fact, I found this awhile back which shows the 1884 case had similarities to the 1873 case AND Eddowes. It also shows post mortem mutilation that seems unnecessary if the killer intended to dispose of remains anyway.

                              East London Press,
                              November 8,1884


                              I find the use of carbolic acid particularly interesting . . . Any of the other torsos treated with acid?

                              curious

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by curious View Post
                                The problem I see with this is that the Ripper murders were confined to such a small area -- almost as though the Ripper lacked mobility.
                                Spot on, Curious.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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