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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    How do we explain the similarities? You're presuming that the "similarities" you see (cut throat, abdominal flaps) are somehow objective truths, when they're not. They're very much subjective interpretations and, in the case of the cut throats, over-interpretations of the evidence.

    You recently wrote something like "Chapman and Kelly had their throats cut, and Jackson drastically so". Now, having your head chopped off isn't the same as having your throat cut, and it takes a huge amount of special pleading to put them in the same category, as if decapitation were an extreme form of throat-cutting. It isn't; decapitation happens, not because the killer wants to kill you quickly (as per Chapman/Kelly), but because he wants to cut you in pieces after he's killed you (as per Jackson and the other Torso victims). There's no comparison between the JTR and Torso cases to be found here.

    I won't comment in detail on the apparent similarity of the "three slips/flaps" - which we've argued to death in the past - except to say that my interpretation of the evidence sees little or no similarity there, either.
    I agree with Sam. It's also worth noting that the victims of The Torso Killer were cut into pieces, limbs cut off etc. None of the C5 had a single limb cut off . if it was the same killer the C5 would have had limbs cut off.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
      I agree with Sam. It's also worth noting that the victims of The Torso Killer were cut into pieces, limbs cut off etc. None of the C5 had a single limb cut off . if it was the same killer the C5 would have had limbs cut off.
      Unless the torsos where ones he killed at home, and the ripper ones were ones where he couldn’t and killed in the streets.

      Post mortem mutilation targeting a specific area is rare enough, add to that removal of internal organs and that alone for me, let alone all the other similarities (same victimology, same location and time frame) pushes the needle toward them being the same man.
      Last edited by Abby Normal; 03-29-2018, 05:53 PM.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        Unless the torsos where ones he killed at home, and the ripper ones were ones where he couldn’t and killed in the streets.

        Post mortem mutilation targeting a specific area is rare enough, add to that removal of internal organs and that alone for me, let alone all the other similarities (same victimology, same location and time frame) pushes the needle toward them being the same man.
        The Torso killings spanned nearly 20 years so it's not really the same time frame. Unless there were Ripper style killings throughout the period of The Torso killings your argument breaks down.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
          The Torso killings spanned nearly 20 years so it's not really the same time frame. Unless there were Ripper style killings throughout the period of The Torso killings your argument breaks down.
          Hi John,

          The four torso killings that were actually linked to each other spanned from May 1887 to September of 1889. The Whitehall Mystery, the second of the series, was thought to have been murdered very close to the same time of Polly Nichols. I personally put the murder closer to that of Annie Chapman. Then two more shortly before and after Alice McKenzie, who very well could be included in the series of Whitechapel murders, imo. The series began, interestingly, about the same time construction began on New Scotland Yard in 1887 and ended shortly before final completion of the building in 1890.
          Last edited by jerryd; 03-29-2018, 09:05 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            How do we explain the similarities? You're presuming that the "similarities" you see (cut throat, abdominal flaps) are somehow objective truths, when they're not. They're very much subjective interpretations and, in the case of the cut throats, over-interpretations of the evidence.

            You recently wrote something like "Chapman and Kelly had their throats cut, and Jackson drastically so". Now, having your head chopped off isn't the same as having your throat cut, and it takes a huge amount of special pleading to put them in the same category, as if decapitation were an extreme form of throat-cutting. It isn't; decapitation happens, not because the killer wants to kill you quickly (as per Chapman/Kelly), but because he wants to cut you in pieces after he's killed you (as per Jackson and the other Torso victims). There's no comparison between the JTR and Torso cases to be found here.

            I won't comment in detail on the apparent similarity of the "three slips/flaps" - which we've argued to death in the past - except to say that my interpretation of the evidence sees little or no similarity there, either.
            You may have missed my earlier post, where I said that we should not interpret at all, Gareth. What I am speaking about ARE objective truths:

            The three victims mentioned here WERE all prostituting themselves. That is an objective truth.

            They DID all have their necks cut off, one of them totally, and the other two down to the bone. As you will be aware, it was suggested by the medicos that the torso killer killed by means of cutting the neck. This is also an objective truth.

            They DID all have their abdomens cut open all the way down from the chest to the groin. That is an objective truth.

            They DID all have their abdominal walls cut away to a smaller or larger extent, and they all had the pieces cut away described as large flaps with subcutaneous tissue attached. That is an objective truth.

            They DID all their uteri removed from their wombs - cut out, that is. That is an objectiv truth.

            This is not something I made up. It is something that has gone unnoticed for far too long, until mainly Debra dug the facts out.

            I leave it to others to speculate in possible but generally speaking unestablishable differences inbewteen how these damages looked. The one thing I am saying is that we DO have these similarities present. And I am saying that it would be as unexpected as to find the backside of the moon painted in checquered black and white if it was not the same killer on account of these similarities.

            That´s all I am saying. To me, it is an absolute certainty that we must work from tha assumption of one killer only. And that in itself is a huge leap forward in understanding what the murders and the killer were about.

            If you wan´t to dismiss it, you need to find comparisons, where so many and so rare similarities were present in two murder series, overlapping in time and space.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              I agree with Sam. It's also worth noting that the victims of The Torso Killer were cut into pieces, limbs cut off etc. None of the C5 had a single limb cut off . if it was the same killer the C5 would have had limbs cut off.
              There are examples of serialists who dismembered some of their victims while not doing so with others. It is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome, John. It has been outlined before that the dismemberment killings may have been carried out in a bolthole that could be tied to the killer, and that he accordingly had to get rid of the remains in these cases, whereas this was never the case with the Ripper victims. Having been killed in the streets, they left no trace to the killer. It is consequentially only if dismemberment was an important part of the paraphilia that we should expect to see it every time.

              The dissimilaritites can therefore be overcome, whereas the similarities remain unexplained. "It just came out that way" is not good enough in my book.
              Last edited by Fisherman; 03-29-2018, 11:10 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                Hi John,

                The four torso killings that were actually linked to each other spanned from May 1887 to September of 1889. The Whitehall Mystery, the second of the series, was thought to have been murdered very close to the same time of Polly Nichols. I personally put the murder closer to that of Annie Chapman. Then two more shortly before and after Alice McKenzie, who very well could be included in the series of Whitechapel murders, imo. The series began, interestingly, about the same time construction began on New Scotland Yard in 1887 and ended shortly before final completion of the building in 1890.
                I include the 1873 victim too (and likely the 1874 victim), but I agree that the inclusion is a more tenuous one, going on the damage done only. I have earlier hinted at a further reason to include the 1873 victim, and that reason remains. The 1873 victim and Kelly are very closely related, but I am keeping the reason to myself for now. I am fine so far, however, to work from the assumption that the Torso series spanned 1887-89 only.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Unless the torsos where ones he killed at home, and the ripper ones were ones where he couldn’t and killed in the streets.
                  Why risk killing outdoors when you have access to private premises?
                  Post mortem mutilation targeting a specific area is rare enough, add to that removal of internal organs and that alone for me
                  The post-mortem mutilation of the torso victims was done in conjunction with chopping them into pieces, not as an end in itself.
                  let alone all the other similarities (same victimology, same location and time frame)
                  It is not the same location (the Ripper murders concentrated in a small part of the East End, the torso murders' focus - if it had any - in West London), nor the same time frame (the outdoor Ripper murders occurred in a short blitz of a few weeks, the torso murders on a leisurely basis over a long period of time). As to "victimology", prostitutes were, are, and always have been, easy meat for killers.

                  Let's be precise about these things, folks.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                    Hi John,

                    The four torso killings that were actually linked to each other spanned from May 1887 to September of 1889.
                    How do you know that the other torso murders weren't connected? ISTR that Fisherman and some others think that they were, and there's the rub; it's purely down to an interpretation, and often a very slack interpretation, of what is often patchy evidence.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      Hi John,

                      The four torso killings that were actually linked to each other spanned from May 1887 to September of 1889. The Whitehall Mystery, the second of the series, was thought to have been murdered very close to the same time of Polly Nichols. I personally put the murder closer to that of Annie Chapman. Then two more shortly before and after Alice McKenzie, who very well could be included in the series of Whitechapel murders, imo. The series began, interestingly, about the same time construction began on New Scotland Yard in 1887 and ended shortly before final completion of the building in 1890.
                      But the 1873, 1874 and 1884 Torso killings bear far more resemblance to the other Torso killings than the C5.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                        There are examples of serialists who dismembered some of their victims while not doing so with others. It is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome, John. It has been outlined before that the dismemberment killings may have been carried out in a bolthole that could be tied to the killer, and that he accordingly had to get rid of the remains in these cases, whereas this was never the case with the Ripper victims. Having been killed in the streets, they left no trace to the killer. It is consequentially only if dismemberment was an important part of the paraphilia that we should expect to see it every time.

                        The dissimilaritites can therefore be overcome, whereas the similarities remain unexplained. "It just came out that way" is not good enough in my book.
                        That's garbage if thats your attitude then you might as well conclude that Chapman was the Ripper and the Torso killer.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                          The Torso killings spanned nearly 20 years so it's not really the same time frame. Unless there were Ripper style killings throughout the period of The Torso killings your argument breaks down.
                          Hi John
                          But both ended at the same time in 89. To me it looks like an escalation to the point of losing control then sudden stoppage. Common for serial killers who have been successful for a period of time, like bundy and kemper.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Hi John
                            But both ended at the same time in 89. To me it looks like an escalation to the point of losing control then sudden stoppage. Common for serial killers who have been successful for a period of time, like bundy and kemper.
                            The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                              The two series murders are to my mind very different and two different perpetrators are responsible.
                              Indeed, or - quite possibly - more than two perpetrators... in either series.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • The trouble with the Thames torso murders is if the killer murdered in that fashion in a safe bolt hole why take the risk of going out onto the streets ? We know the murders spanned either side of JTR if it was one perpetrator he took enormous risks by changing his MO. Lets look at the C5, Polly, almost caught in the act. Annie, took a large risk in a backyard overlooked in almost daylight. Liz, very nearly caught in the act, and you could argue the same with Kate. Mary is the only one with a little bit of safety involved, and even that murder came with large risks, someone looking through the broken pane etc. If i was the killer after almost being caught/interrupted after Polly i would go back to my tried and trusted method.

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