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  • jerryd: Thanks for the reply,

    I have to disagree that Lechmere would pick that spot. The fact that spot in that vault was chosen was no coincidence in my opinion. Someone familiar with that basement was involved, which, by the way, could be someone other than Wildbore. Several news reports indicate there was suspicion on the workmen because of where the body was found. I would go as far to say (without proof) that some of these men were watched by the police. And maybe watched for a long period of time, due to the fact Elizabeth Jackson wasn't dismembered until June of 1889.

    I cannot say that Lechmere would have picked the spot. Nor can I say that he would not have. These matters are not within our reach to fully understand.

    I can see the logic behind your suggestion that much points to someone who worked on the premises. But I think the suggestion works a lot better when we look at the Whitehall deed in isolation. Once we accept what Hebbert said about the connection between the 1887, 1888 and 1889 deeds, the perspective changes.
    Let´s say that the killer was one of the construction workers at the building site, and let´s call him, say, Frederick Wildbore.
    Why would he put a torso in the place where he worked - and one torso only? Why did he otherwise dump the parts in places that had no comparable connection at all to himself, as far as we can tell? What was he doing in Pinchin Street?

    The idea that Wildbore was so hot on getting attention that he even "found" the Whitehall torso when his comrades failed to do so, seems very odd to me.
    To me, having proposed Lechmere for a number of years, you may perhaps see how I find the Pinchin Street connection much more alluring than the idea of a construction worker who placed one torso on the tips of his own shoes and then steered clear of any coupling to himself both before and after.


    What would have been Lechmere's working hours? Would they coincide with the working hours of the men at the worksite? 6 a.m to 5 p.m roughly.

    We have it on record that he started work at 4 AM on the day he ki... sorry, "found" Nichols. And he would have worked long days, stretching numerous hours into the afternoon.

    And if Lechmere wasn't hauling around bodies with his cart during working hours, did he have another cart at home to haul bodies around when he didn't have his work cart? Again, genuine questions.

    With no answers, I´m afraid. Lechmere was by no means a poor man. He amassed money enough to start a shop of his own, and he left a fair bit behind when he died. His mother was a resourceful woman, it would seem. She was working as a horse flesh dealer in 1891, quite possibly having access to transport for that flesh - meaning that there may have been a possibility for Lechmere to use that transport too. He may of course have helped out in that line of business too - and we don´t know when it started out.
    There is absolutely no way that we can rule out that he had the means to transport body parts around London, I´m afraid. If he had been dirt poor and if he had no known connections in the transport business, I would have been more inclined to agree that he seemed unlikely to have transported the torso to Whitehall.
    But even in such a case, I would still have thought that there WAS a solution, meaning that Lechmere was the culprit. It fits that way, much, much better than any other way I´ve seen suggested.
    Call me a fanatic if you wish (not that I think you DO wish to do that, but here´s being humble...), but I have so far seen no reason at all to wawer about Lechmere.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 11-11-2017, 02:55 PM.

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    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
      The fact that spot in that vault was chosen was no coincidence in my opinion. Someone familiar with that basement was involved
      A sensible, and eminently probable, suggestion.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • I can see the logic behind your suggestion that much points to someone who worked on the premises. But I think the suggestion works a lot better when we look at the Whitehall deed in isolation. Once we accept what Hebbert said about the connection between the 1887, 1888 and 1889 deeds, the perspective changes.
        Yes perspective changes for me, too. In 1887 the construction of the basement in Whitehall began. By September of 1889, the building may have been far enough along that it was no longer an option to use for luring women, storing parts or cutting them up.


        Why would he put a torso in the place where he worked - and one torso only? Why did he otherwise dump the parts in places that had no comparable connection at all to himself, as far as we can tell? What was he doing in Pinchin Street?
        I'm theorizing that maybe the Whitehall victim was killed in the basement. Then parts were taken away piecemeal, or buried in the basement. As far as Pinchin Street goes, Wildbore has a possible connection to No. 1, Backchurch Lane. It's a long shot, for sure, but it's as close to the arch as you can get, really. Grover & Sons also has timber holds in the docks in that area. Grover & Sons had several Bid Tenders in the Whitechapel area, I'm trying to find which tenders, if any, were accepted for work in the area. As far as dumping parts with no connection, I think I stated before all the parts were on a possible and likely route to his home in Battersea. The other, out of the way Rainham parts, were near his employers office.


        The idea that Wildbore was so hot on getting attention that he even "found" the Whitehall torso when his comrades failed to do so, seems very odd to me.
        You've said many times yourself, the killer was making a statement by putting the body in the police buildings. What better way to make a statement? Nobody was finding the body, so why not find it for them? That, or he was in the process of trying to bury it at some point in the near future. Just as he did with the leg. Heck, maybe if they looked hard enough they'd have found a few skulls buried in the vault?

        In reality, I think his comrades failed to smell it because it wasn't there when they were in that part of the vault. If it were, I'm quite sure they would have smelled it once they entered that area.

        Comment


        • I must say this too, Christer,

          Wildbore or another workman may have only been the depositors of the parts and not the killer at all. I haven't left that option out.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Coming soon, a thread entitled "Was 'Wildbore' another Lechmere alias?"
            wilbores connection to anything is exactly the same as lechs. but ihavnt see you two sherlocks give jerry one tenth of bull **** you've thrown at fish so a big **** you to you two! don't like it? too ******* bad!

            and by the way-contribute something other than bullshit negativity and amusing anectotes!. wow that's a shocker!
            Last edited by Abby Normal; 11-11-2017, 05:24 PM.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              wilbores connection to anything is exactly the same as lechs. but ihavnt see you two sherlocks give jerry one tenth of bull **** you've thrown at fish so a big **** you to you two! don't like it? too ******* bad!

              and by the way-contribute something other than bullshit negativetity!. wow that's a shocker!
              wildbore is far more suspicious. he's the one using the space where there is a rotting torso and it doesn't really make sense that he wouldn't smell it. Also the vault is a such a specific, locked, hidden away place that only people who work there know about and know how to get into. so it's nothing like lechmere or buck's row really.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                Rocky

                You misunderstand my view and maybe I could have been clearer. Yes there has been some very good debate, by many contributors. Much of the interesting stuff has been regards the Torso killings and the item you mentioned from Joshua was very interesting, however none of it really suggests the same killer for both series of murders.

                Further i see nothing which advances the question of was the same MOTIVE involved, which was surely the purpose of the thread given it's title.


                Steve
                nice back track. I'm not buying it either. theres been a lot of great stuff and if you and mister superficial would stop the knee jerk crap against anything fish says you might just learn something.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                  wildbore is far more suspicious. he's the one using the space where there is a rotting torso and it doesn't really make sense that he wouldn't smell it. Also the vault is a such a specific, locked, hidden away place that only people who work there know about and know how to get into. so it's nothing like lechmere or buck's row really.
                  absolutely-in this case. but weve now seen how big that maze is. so yes ive got him number one with torsos. but you guys gotta give fish the same respect for lech with for polly with bucks row or else its just personal! and that dosnt get us anywhere either! see what I mean?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    absolutely-in this case. but weve now seen how big that maze is. so yes ive got him number one with torsos. but you guys gotta give fish the same respect for lech with for polly with bucks row or else its just personal! and that dosnt get us anywhere either! see what I mean?
                    uh no not at all. buck's row is a public street

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                      uh no not at all. buck's row is a public street
                      both discovered the body.exactly the same. exept lech was seen befor he raised the alarm. so actually much more suspicious IMHO
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        both discovered the body.exactly the same. exept lech was seen befor he raised the alarm. so actually much more suspicious IMHO
                        na it would be the same if they found polly nichol's trunk in a shed where only lechmere kepts his cart and it had been there for 2 weeks but he only noticed it a few days ago and thought it was an old ham in a coat.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                          na it would be the same if they found polly nichol's trunk in a shed where only lechmere kepts his cart and it had been there for 2 weeks but he only noticed it a few days ago and thought it was an old ham in a coat.

                          oh yeah so some guy found over the dead body of a freshly killed woman on the street is less suspicious than a guy who points out the far dead torso in a basement is less suspicious? soory. I think your detective skills might not be up to snuff.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Abby, Rocky,

                            Here's the way I look at Wildbore. We have a body found where he is known to frequent on a daily basis. It is a difficult, dark spot to reach. Assuming he deposited it there, what are his options on that Tuesday?

                            1) Not say anything and somebody else discovers the body and wonders why Wildbore didn't notice it when he often went in there?

                            2) Say something to a friend in hopes he tells someone and it clears him (Wildbore) somewhat because at least he showed concern?

                            3) Wait for the right time to get in and move/bury the body?

                            It may have been too late for #3, because I think the body had an unmanageable stench at that point and others may have been talking about the smell already.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              wilbores connection to anything is exactly the same as lechs. but ihavnt see you two sherlocks give jerry one tenth of bull **** you've thrown at fish so a big **** you to you two! don't like it? too ******* bad!

                              and by the way-contribute something other than bullshit negativity and amusing anectotes!. wow that's a shocker!
                              Calm down, Abs.

                              Actually, Lech's credentials are superior to Wildbore's - so far. But from what you've posted recently it appears you know bugger-all about Lechmere. Wouldn't your time be better spent researching him rather than hurling **** insults at serious Ripper researchers?

                              Gary
                              Last edited by MrBarnett; 11-11-2017, 06:12 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                oh yeah so some guy found over the dead body of a freshly killed woman on the street is less suspicious than a guy who points out the far dead torso in a basement is less suspicious? soory. I think your detective skills might not be up to snuff.
                                Except lech wasn’t found over any body.
                                G U T

                                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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