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  • Sam Flynn: Phillips certainly mentioned anatomical knowledge, which Baxter turned into anatomical SKILL in his summing up.

    Sorry, Gareth - this can be nothing but an unsubstatiated guess of yours. There is every reason to believe that what Baxter relayed was what Phillips said. As you can see, the press did not cover Phillips´ testimony, and so you have no idea what terminology he used. He could have said "surgeon", "post-mortem room", "skill" or anything else like that - and it seems he actually did. And it apparently was quite enough to have his fellow medicos question it, on account of their profession - and themselves.

    Baxter's assertion that the killer must have been accustomed with the dissection room seems to have been conjured out of thin air...

    No, it seems to be a quotation from Phillips´ testimony. Once again, the press did not take down all Phillips said, because it was unsuited for the general public. If you want to claim that Baxter made things up out of thin air, then you must also be able to produce some sort of evidence for that. If he HAD done so, he would no doubt have been brandished a phantasist in the papers. And James Risdon Bennett would have cleared Phillips and put all the blame on Baxter.
    That never happend though, and so we once again arrive at your eminent wording when we are to answer the question "Why?": Go figure!

    ...and it is perhaps significant that Baxter said this almost as a prelude to trotting out his pet theory that the killer was involved in the black market organ trade.

    Once again, if he had gravely misqouted Phillips, we would have heard of it. The american doctor matter cannot be used to alter that - the whole world was listening, and there was no room for lying on behalf of a coroner.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      Phillips certainly mentioned anatomical knowledge, which Baxter turned into anatomical SKILL in his summing up. Baxter's assertion that the killer must have been accustomed with the dissection room seems to have been conjured out of thin air, and it is perhaps significant that Baxter said this almost as a prelude to trotting out his pet theory that the killer was involved in the black market organ trade.
      Hi Sam,

      This Inquest excerpt is arguably what we can agree Phillips intended to convey....."Was there any anatomical knowledge displayed? - I think there was. There were indications of it. My own impression is that that anatomical knowledge was only less displayed or indicated in consequence of haste. The person evidently was hindered from making a more complete dissection in consequence of the haste"

      "Are those portions such as would require anatomical knowledge to extract? - I think the mode in which they were extracted did show some anatomical knowledge."

      "I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body."

      "I am of opinion that the length of the weapon with which the incisions were inflicted was at least five to six inches in length - probably more - and must have been very sharp. The manner in which they had been done indicated a certain amount of anatomical knowledge."

      Without any boost from Baxter, I believe Phillips is on record saying that the killer had some, perhaps considerable, anatomical knowledge and that the cuts were all made so that the uterus could be accessed and extracted.

      I don't know about you, but before studying here I would have no idea which would be the best way to access or remove that organ...and certainly not while the clock was ticking loudly. Sure, I could read a book, but would the cuts I make to accomplish the action look as if they "enabled" the organ access and extraction?
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
        Rocky, the reference was in the Star of 3rd Oct. The source is an employee at the Red Lion pub near the building site who had applied for a nightwatchman job there and been turned down. He claimed he saw men entering regularly to sleep in the vaults, he thought:

        "The night waterman at the Red Lion public-house in Cannon-row explained to a Star reporter how it was possible for a man to get into the new police buildings at night. He applied to the clerk of the works for the post of night-watchman, and was told that one would not be appointed, but he is about the neighborhood every night until after twelve. He has, he says, frequently seen men going into the buildings at night to sleep - he supposes in the vaults. A large iron pillar stands at the corner of the kerb-stone in Cannon-row just against the hoarding. It is quite easy for anyone to mount on the top of the pillar, and then to

        SCALE THE HOARDING.
        He has seen several people enter this way. He has never seen any females go over, but a man once in could easily open a door from the inside and admit a female. It would be difficult, although not impossible, to get a heavy parcel over the hoarding at the place to which the waterman referred."

        Of course, he could have been making this up because he really wanted that nightwatchman job.
        Kinda suspicious no?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
          Maybe the Torsoman was Jack the Ripper's father or mentor? Could explain the Torsos killings seeming more accomplished, while Jack seems to have a learning curve in his series.

          I'm only half-joking, as I have seen a true crime doc about at least one father and son set of criminals, who I believe were also serial killers.
          HI PC
          thanks for responding. yes ive thought of the mentor scenario and its definitely plausible. Ive also thought of that scenario to link the 80s and 70s torso murders.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            HI PC
            thanks for responding. yes ive thought of the mentor scenario and its definitely plausible. Ive also thought of that scenario to link the 80s and 70s torso murders.
            It will require that both father and son (or mentor and pupil) respond to the same inspiration ground and develop the same paraphilia, though.

            The by far simpler explanation is that it was the same man throughout. Then again, whenever Gareth opts for the simple explanation, I whack him over the fingers...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
              It will require that both father and son (or mentor and pupil) respond to the same inspiration ground and develop the same paraphilia, though.

              The by far simpler explanation is that it was the same man throughout. Then again, whenever Gareth opts for the simple explanation, I whack him over the fingers...
              fish
              do you have an explanation for the gap in time between the 70s and 80s torso's? and 8 year gap correct?
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Phillips certainly mentioned anatomical knowledge, which Baxter turned into anatomical SKILL in his summing up. Baxter's assertion that the killer must have been accustomed with the dissection room seems to have been conjured out of thin air, and it is perhaps significant that Baxter said this almost as a prelude to trotting out his pet theory that the killer was involved in the black market organ trade.
                Hi Sam,

                The comment he made that the knife acts themselves were undertaken in order to access and remove the organ taken, that comment suggests knowledge. The fact that he mentions no superfluous cuts in that venture suggests that he was capable in the acts undertaken.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  fish
                  do you have an explanation for the gap in time between the 70s and 80s torso's? and 8 year gap correct?
                  73-74-84-87-88-89-89 is the sequence, Abby, so there is a ten-year hiatus - or the killer had other victims, who were never on the list.

                  Dahmer had a nine-year hiatus, I believe, between victims 1 and 2.

                  Is anybodys guess, really.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    73-74-84-87-88-89-89 is the sequence, Abby, so there is a ten-year hiatus - or the killer had other victims, who were never on the list.

                    Dahmer had a nine-year hiatus, I believe, between victims 1 and 2.

                    Is anybodys guess, really.
                    Ok thanks Fish
                    I though there was a 70s torso that was more in the 76/77 time frame but I guess not.

                    But yes, its actually not that rare for SKs to have extremely long gaps for whatever reasons in their activity so its not that big a deal to me.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      Hi Sam,

                      The comment he made that the knife acts themselves were undertaken in order to access and remove the organ taken, that comment suggests knowledge. The fact that he mentions no superfluous cuts in that venture suggests that he was capable in the acts undertaken.
                      Yes, of course there was knowledge involved, and everybody seems to agree that this was Phillips´ view too. Some, like Gareth, are working hard to make it look as if Phillips´view was vastly exagerrated by Baxter and the press, and that all Phillips admitted to was some crude anatomical insights, like knowing just about where to find the uterus.

                      I believe the great hooh-haah that was aroused speaks against this suggestion - I think Phillips very clearly spoke of expertise and far-reaching knowledge. However, as Cris has pointed out somewhere, Phillips became very unwilling to speak to the press after the Chapman inquest. I would submit that this may have been due to how his fellow professionals subjected him to a lot of pressure, not taking kindly to how it was led on that a medico lay behind the Ripper murders.

                      A parallel would be how Galloway first stated that the Rainham victim definitely had fallen prey to a man with surgical qualifications, only to then play it all down very much at the inquest, only admitting that the killer had some insights about the anatomical framework of a woman.

                      I think the kitchen became too hot to stay in, and so the two gentlemen backed out - or clammed up.

                      My personal feeling is that they both realized that they had allowed themselves to be too much impressed by the knifework, thereby reasoning that a very skilled knifework pointed to a very skilled medical craftsman.

                      PS. In the context of how impressed Galloway was by the Rainham deed, it needs to be pointed out that Hebbert actually regarded it as the LEAST skilled deed of the four deeds 1887-89!
                      Last edited by Fisherman; 11-08-2017, 08:47 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        Ok thanks Fish
                        I though there was a 70s torso that was more in the 76/77 time frame but I guess not.

                        But yes, its actually not that rare for SKs to have extremely long gaps for whatever reasons in their activity so its not that big a deal to me.
                        Not to me either. Note that there is also a three year hiatus between the 1884 deed and the 1887 deed, or to be more exact, a two-and-a-half year hiatus.

                        Also note that there is a steady acceleration within the deeds after the 73/74 deeds: ten years - two and a half years - a year and three months - nine months - three months.

                        Traditional serial killer research tells us that it is typical that the killer gets more and more trouble keeping the lid on as he goes along, and that a combination of growing confidence and shorter periods of cooling down will result in this exact thing - an acceleration.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          Yes, of course there was knowledge involved, and everybody seems to agree that this was Phillips´ view too.
                          Knowledge, yes. That became "skill" when Baxter got hold of it, though.
                          Some, like Gareth, are working hard to make it look as if Phillips´view was vastly exagerrated by Baxter and the press
                          I am not working hard to make Phillips' view out to have been "vastly exaggerated", but I am pointing out, with justification, that some of the views traditionally attributed to Phillips seem to have emanated from other quarters: the press and - most influentially, perhaps - coroner Wynne Baxter. I've opened a thread on Baxter, so I suggest that would be a better place to pursue this discussion so that this thread can return its focus to the torso murders themselves.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • Sam Flynn: Knowledge, yes. That became "skill" when Baxter got hold of it, though.

                            As long as he got hold of it from Phillips, that´s what we need to accept. And there was nobody else he culd have gotten it from, really.

                            I am not working hard to make Phillips' view out to have been "vastly exaggerated", but I am pointing out, with justification, that some of the views traditionally attributed to Phillips seem to have emanated from other quarters: the press and - most influentially, perhaps - coroner Wynne Baxter. I've opened a thread on Baxter, so I suggest that would be a better place to pursue this discussion so that this thread can return its focus to the torso murders themselves.

                            I have said what I have to say on this: I think you are the one making things up, not Baxter.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              I have said what I have to say on this: I think you are the one making things up, not Baxter.
                              That accusation is as unfounded as it is outrageous. And this from the man who, not content with pinning the Ripper murders on Charles Cross on the flimsiest of foundations, also wants to pin the torso murders on him as well.

                              For shame.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                That accusation is as unfounded as it is outrageous. And this from the man who, not content with pinning the Ripper murders on Charles Cross on the flimsiest of foundations, also wants to pin the torso murders on him as well.

                                For shame.
                                Oh please, Gareth, don´t be ridiculous. Why would not YOUR accusation against Baxter about having made things up be "unfounded and outrageous"? A civil servant, doing is job - and more than a hundred yars afterwards, some selfrighteous poster on an internet forum starts a thread about how dishonest this man was? With no evidence!?

                                So don´t come crying to me about it.

                                "The flimsiest of foundations" used to point a finger at Lechmere would have been enough for a modern day trial, according to James Scobie. That´s how "flimsy" they are. In that context, ANY and EVERY other foundation for accusations about being the Ripper is by definition "flimsier". The only flimsy thing in THAT context are the accusations of having misled and lied to Scobie - VERY nice Ripperology that!!

                                There is extremely good reason to vote for just the one killer in the two series, as I have shown (while you looked away). Given that Lechmere is a good enough bid to warrant a trial, and given that he is one of the very, VERY few suspects who fit the combined profile agewise, there can be no other logical conclusion than the one that Charles Lechmere was very probably and highly likely the Rippertorso killer.

                                Now dry your crocodile tears and go back to real debating instead of the kind of crap you just posted, please.
                                Last edited by Fisherman; 11-08-2017, 10:55 AM.

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