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Was Annie Chapman a rotund woman?

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  • Was Annie Chapman a rotund woman?

    Annie Chapman is typically portrayed as a woman with a big belly. And, there is the hint of a double chin in her morgue photo.

    Was Kate Eddowes a thin woman? The answer is less speculative since we have that unfortunate photograph of her naked corpse to decide.

    The question of this thread is, could these women's body types have been a significant factor in Jack the Ripper's decision to cut her abdomen into portions?

    He wants her uterus. Does Annie Chapman's girth present a different set of complications?

    I may be wrong on this next point-
    in both cases, the murderer made a similar effort of avoiding the navel.
    there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

  • #2
    Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
    I may be wrong on this next point-
    in both cases, the murderer made a similar effort of avoiding the navel.
    On the contrary, your observation there may have more to it than the others. It's certainly true that the Ripper skirted around Eddowes' navel, because (a) Brown tells us so; and (b) we can see it for ourselves on the photographs. It's also true that "part of the belly wall, including the navel" was absent from the scene of Chapman's murder, which might suggest that her killer cut around the navel in her case also.

    Well spotted.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #3
      According to ripper author (and surgeon), Wynne Weston Davies, that is something surgeons are trained to do.
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange


      "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
      Fisherman

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      • #4
        Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
        According to ripper author (and surgeon), Wynne Weston Davies, that is something surgeons are trained to do.
        Or, presumably, something which could be read about in medical books.

        To be clear, we don't actually know that the Ripper neatly skirted around Chapman's navel, only that a chunk of her belly containing the navel was missing from the scene. This isn't quite the same as "leaving the navel on a tongue of skin", which we get in Eddowes' case. Certainly, there's little else in the manner in which Chapman was dismantled that suggests that a trained hand was responsible; on the contrary, her abdomen was cut open like the crust of a meat pie.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
          Annie Chapman is typically portrayed as a woman with a big belly. And, there is the hint of a double chin in her morgue photo.

          Was Kate Eddowes a thin woman? The answer is less speculative since we have that unfortunate photograph of her naked corpse to decide.

          The question of this thread is, could these women's body types have been a significant factor in Jack the Ripper's decision to cut her abdomen into portions?

          He wants her uterus. Does Annie Chapman's girth present a different set of complications?

          I may be wrong on this next point-
          in both cases, the murderer made a similar effort of avoiding the navel.
          No. I think Annie Chapman was small enough to become a suitable victim.

          Pierre

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Pierre View Post
            No. I think Annie Chapman was small enough to become a suitable victim.

            Pierre
            Mary Kelly?
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Pierre View Post
              No. I think Annie Chapman was small enough to become a suitable victim.

              Pierre
              Do you propose that the killer had some physical requirements for his "suitable victims"?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DJA View Post
                Mary Kelly?
                I remember seeing an analysis some time ago, based on the in-situ photo(s) of Kelly. If memory serves she wouldn't have been a waif.

                Comment


                • #9
                  5'7" tall.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    it's not a profile in choice of victims pierre; for now, i'm settled on "prostitute" satisfying that matter.

                    with kate eddowes, his cuts form two flaps which he may have been able to pull back so that he could reach inside and take her uterus. she was a thin woman, so possibly that was all that was required.
                    with annie chapman, she may have had more belly fat that would need to be removed first, possibly cutting flaps wasn't enough or would have created difficulties when he tried to open them since there would have been more mass to contend with...
                    there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      To be clear, we don't actually know that the Ripper neatly skirted around Chapman's navel, only that a chunk of her belly containing the navel was missing from the scene. This isn't quite the same as "leaving the navel on a tongue of skin", which we get in Eddowes' case. Certainly, there's little else in the manner in which Chapman was dismantled that suggests that a trained hand was responsible; on the contrary, her abdomen was cut open like the crust of a meat pie.
                      Wasn't the missing flap of skin (which included the navel) part of the piece removed "with one sweep of the knife", as Phillips described it?

                      Eddowes' navel may have been left on a tongue of skin, but it's hardly a surgical incision, more of a ragged mess.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Wasn't the missing flap of skin (which included the navel) part of the piece removed "with one sweep of the knife", as Phillips described it?
                        That referred to the pelvic organs (uterus and bladder) and, as a caveat, it's very doubtful that Phillips was quoted directly or whether this was just was just a bit of journalese. The "one sweep of the knife" statement appeared in an article in the Lancet, not as part of Phillips' inquest testimony or in any official source. In fact, this doesn't seem to be a direct quote at all, as can be seen by reading the entire article here.

                        The "sweep of the knife" statement is often presented as if Phillips was "interviewed" by the Lancet, or that he contributed an article to the journal, etc. Neither is true. It strikes me that this was an "editorial" or "opinion" piece by a Lancet journalist, in which he summarised what he'd heard or seen published elsewhere. So, there's a real possibility that those famous words didn't come from Phillips at all.
                        Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-18-2017, 07:01 AM.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, apologies Sam, my memory let me down. I was thinking of this report from the Echo, which isn't a direct quote;

                          "It was evident, continued the witness, that these absent portions, together with the incision in the large intestine, were the result of the same excising power."

                          Which isn't quite as dramatic as the lancet's interpretation.
                          It's also not clear whether these missing parts included the third flap of skin, probably not on reflection. I don't know what to make of Phillips' apparent coyness over this third flap;

                          "Dr. Phillips (missing) - The abdominal wall had been removed in three portions, two taken from the anterior part, and the other from another part of the body. There was a greater portion of the body removed from the right side than the left. On placing these three flaps of skin together, it was evident that a portion was wanting."

                          It's worth noting that he says one side had more removed from the right side...is that because that was the side from which the killer worked?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                            It's worth noting that he says one side had more removed from the right side...is that because that was the side from which the killer worked?
                            Got it in one. Annie's left side was nearer the fence, so working from the right hand side would have been the natural thing for him to do.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Got it in one. Annie's left side was nearer the fence, so working from the right hand side would have been the natural thing for him to do.
                              I'm glad you understood what I meant there. My post should have read "the abdomen had more removed from the right side".

                              Do you think Phillips' failure to specify the location of the third flap means it was too rude to say even after the women and children had left the room? Or something else?

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