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If ES were not a Ripper victim, would Jack have known about her before killing CE?

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  • If ES were not a Ripper victim, would Jack have known about her before killing CE?

    Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

    When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

    But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

    Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

    And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

    I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?
    "Damn it, Doc! Why did you have to tear up that letter? If only I had more time... Wait a minute, I got all the time I want! I got a time machine!"

  • #2
    Maybe, maybe not.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
      The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
      There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
      Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting question. Stride was discovered at 1am, Eddowes was killed between 1.30 and 1.45. The murder scenes weren't that far apart. It's possible Jack knew about Stride's murder. He had 30 minutes from the time Stride's body was discovered to get to Mitre Square and come into contact with Eddowes. Jack would have had to find out about Stride fairly quickly though; within 10-15 minutes of her body being discovered. If he happened to be near Berner Street for a reason unrelated to Stride's killing, then he would have had the chance to find out.
        Obviously I'm speculating as there's no way to know for certain. But in the right circumstances Jack could have found out about Stride prior to killing Eddowes. It's technically possible. I'd like to state for the record though that acknowledging the possibility of this happening neither proves or disproves the theory.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mort Belfry View Post
          Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

          When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

          But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

          Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

          And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

          I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?

          I have found this which reminds me of Stride, then the killing of Eddowes, the taking of her apron and the GSG:

          http://listverse.com/2015/10/31/10-s...haul-truckers/

          "Keith Hunter Jespersonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0OjFb9YMmo
          In 1990, the body of a murdered 23-year-old woman was discovered off the side of a highway by a bicyclist. Soon after, Laverne Pavlinac told police that she and her boyfriend, John Sosnovske, had committed the murder together. Annoyed that Pavlinac and Sosnovske were receiving media attention for the crime, the actual killer left confessions on public restroom walls across the country, signed with a smiley face. When that failed to garner attention, he began to send letters to the media with the same signature, leading the media to dub him the “Happy Face Killer.” Four years later, the killer confessed to murdering Taunja Bennett, the woman found by the bicyclist. He also led investigators to evidence that he’d scattered, and Pavlinac and Sosnovske were eventually released. It turned out that Pavlinac had made a false confession in an attempt to end her relationship with her abusive boyfriend—even if it meant serving time in prison herself."

          This is the opposite of the Stride/Eddowes murder and leaving of the GSG. In this, a couple took credit for one of the SK's murders. He took to graffiti, then to actual letters to the media.

          In the events of Sept. 30, 1888, Stride was killed and her murder attributed to the same man who had killed Polly Nichols and Annie Chapmen.

          It isn't difficult for me to envision the killer sitting peacefully in a pub, tossing back a few pints when word comes there's been "another killing." Furious at being blamed for something he hasn't done, he strides from the pub. Perhaps along the way, he learns that "this" woman hasn't been mutilated.

          Now, he's more angry. Don't they recognize his work by now? He'll show them. He continues striding along, until he leaves the swarming policeman behind and runs across Eddowes, just released from jail and still impaired.

          His anger and perhaps the fact that he had been drinking for sometime before he learned of Stride's murder might account for the differences in the knifework between Nichols and Chapman and that of Eddowes. The anger might account for the quickness with which he was able to work, and the additional mutilation might be his attempt to "show them" work by the real killer.

          He sliced a piece of Catherine's apron to identify his intended graffiti, a protest against being blamed for Stride's murder, and leaves the GSG, blaming the Jews of the club for Stride's murder.

          Don't know. Just interesting.

          curious

          Comment


          • #6
            But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?
            In this scenario JtR would need to be out and about in or near the killing zone in the small hours of the morning, which would suggest that he was looking to kill in any event, regardless of anything he might have heard about another murder. If he had heard of a killing on 'H' Division, it might explain a decision to move west into the City though.
            Last edited by Bridewell; 08-05-2017, 09:25 AM.
            "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              If he had heard of a killing on 'H' Division, it might explain a decision to move west into the City though.
              He might have noticed a general increase in police activity, whistles, shouts etc, without knowing exactly that a murder had occurred. They could have been responding to a riot or a street brawl, for all he'd have known.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mort Belfry View Post
                Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

                When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

                But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

                Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

                And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

                I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?
                I believe that since its possible we have quite a bit of time between the murder of Kate and the appearance of an artifact from that crime scene its possible the killer from Mitre Square heard of the earlier murder after his murder. I think he may have heard it associated with a Jewish anarchists club on Berner, and I think its also possible that he had little affection for Jews in general.

                That's the reason I suspect the apron section was deliberately left with a message, both referencing Jews. If I recall correctly I believe one club member had a brother living in the Model Homes.

                I also believe that the location of the cloth may have had ancillary benefit for the killer, it suggests that the killer went from Mitre Square into the East End. He may not have had a bolt hole in that direction at all.
                Michael Richards

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  I believe that since its possible we have quite a bit of time between the murder of Kate and the appearance of an artifact from that crime scene its possible the killer from Mitre Square heard of the earlier murder after his murder. I think he may have heard it associated with a Jewish anarchists club on Berner, and I think its also possible that he had little affection for Jews in general.

                  That's the reason I suspect the apron section was deliberately left with a message, both referencing Jews.
                  If I recall correctly I believe one club member had a brother living in the Model Homes.

                  I also believe that the location of the cloth may have had ancillary benefit for the killer, it suggests that the killer went from Mitre Square into the East End. He may not have had a bolt hole in that direction at all.
                  In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

                  curious

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by curious View Post
                    In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

                    curious
                    Yep, that's the premise. I believe that the apron section carried the bits he took from the scene, something that Annies killer would have been prepared for this time out. The apron was torn and cut, it was a hasty decision. Maybe he did bring a hanky to take things away, but this new development of sectioning colons might have created a mess that wasn't anticipated.
                    Michael Richards

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DJA View Post
                      Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
                      The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
                      There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
                      Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
                      That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

                      Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

                      These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.

                      I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
                        The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
                        There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
                        Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
                        Would you please explain further?

                        Who was being blackmailed? By whom? and Why?

                        Thanks,

                        curious

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I believe Henry Gawen Sutton was being blackmailed by the five women.due to his sexual orientation.
                          Dates back to 1860s when Mary Kelly was a child and both were members of St Leonard's Church,Shoreditch.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                            That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

                            Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

                            These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.
                            I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.

                            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00094-0102.pdf

                            I have mentioned victims ....... um,patients 2 and 7 previously.

                            The strep lives on in the intestines.
                            Mainly invades heart and kidneys.
                            My family has a history of it.

                            Immediately before Eddowes goes hopping,Nichols moves in next door.
                            Kate returns seeking a reward.

                            https://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...act=mrc&uact=8

                            Look familiar?
                            ES?

                            The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

                            Chapman had TB.

                            Mary Ann Kelly appears to be the "ring leader".
                            Local girl,which is why no one has found her in Ireland.

                            I picked up a strep infection in 1982.
                            Used to be called Neurasthenia.
                            Today it is often referred to as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
                            Tends to interfere with my posts.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DJA View Post
                              The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.
                              ...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

                              The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

                              Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.
                              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-12-2017, 01:53 AM.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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