If ES were not a Ripper victim, would Jack have known about her before killing CE?

[DJA]

Very interesting. I was seeing book, Harry D, movie. Thanks for the information.

curious

Davies,Sutton and Gull all lived in Finsbury Square.
Sutton moved next door to Gull in the mid 1860s.
Master and protege. Sutton was not an MD.
Sutton took up positions that included London Hospital and St. Leonard's Vestry Board.
Oddly another Dr Davies mentioned in the case was at Sutton's's residence in the 1881 Census. Sutton was holidaying at Seven Oaks.

You will find Mary Ann Kelly's baptismal record at St. Leonards.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._(toxicologist)
On St.Leonard's Vestry Board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Savage_(physician)
Sutton's son in law.

[curious]

Yep.

In Nichols and Eddowes (Conway) case,for over 20 years.

I have previously linked all five to one person,who I am sure was known as Jack the Ripper.

Really not interested in your circular argument.

I'm interested in your research. Have you found that Eddowes and William Henry Bury were related?

curious

[DJA]

You mean they knew him, and he them?

Unlikely, for the same reasons that all (or even some of) the victims are unlikely to have known each other in any meaningful sense.

Yep.

In Nichols and Eddowes (Conway) case,for over 20 years.

I have previously linked all five to one person,who I am sure was known as Jack the Ripper.

Really not interested in your circular argument.

[curious]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00094-0102.pdf

I have mentioned victims ....... um,patients 2 and 7 previously.

The strep lives on in the intestines.
Mainly invades heart and kidneys.
My family has a history of it.

Immediately before Eddowes goes hopping,Nichols moves in next door.
Kate returns seeking a reward.

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...act=mrc&uact=8

Look familiar?
ES?

The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

Chapman had TB.

Mary Ann Kelly appears to be the "ring leader".
Local girl,which is why no one has found her in Ireland.

I picked up a strep infection in 1982.
Used to be called Neurasthenia.
Today it is often referred to as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
Tends to interfere with my posts.

Very interesting. I was seeing book, Harry D, movie. Thanks for the information.

curious

[Sam Flynn]

"I'm not only linking the women geographically,but also to Jack the Ripper. Seems logical and logistical to me."

You mean they knew him, and he them?

Unlikely, for the same reasons that all (or even some of) the victims are unlikely to have known each other in any meaningful sense.

[DJA]

...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

"Mary Kelly lived at 26 and Little Paternoster.
Chapman at 30 and 35.One of those was the corner of Little Paternoster.
Stride at 38.

Nichols and Eddowes next door to each other.
Might have known each for over 20 years.

Thrawl Street was another common denominator.

These women were thrown together by their circumstances at that time.

I live in a small mountain hamlet.
Brought up in Melbourne,let's say 100 Km away,with my brother and sister.
Chap across the road hails from Geelong,50 Km away.
He shared a house in Geelong with my sister's sons.
His current landlord knew my brother well. Same classes at school.
He knows me.
Small world."

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.

"I'm not only linking the women geographically,but also to Jack the Ripper.
Seems logical and logistical to me."

[DJA]

Sounds like a good movie.

Yep. Thanks!

Found an independent production company near one of the murder sites the other day,when doing some fact checking.
Was a pub owned by one of landlords at the time.
Might contact them next week.

Had the screenplay in my head for many years.

[Harry D]

I believe Henry Gawen Sutton was being blackmailed by the five women.due to his sexual orientation.
Dates back to 1860s when Mary Kelly was a child and both were members of St Leonard's Church,Shoreditch.

Sounds like a good movie.

[Sam Flynn]

The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.

[DJA]

That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.
I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00094-0102.pdf

I have mentioned victims ....... um,patients 2 and 7 previously.

The strep lives on in the intestines.
Mainly invades heart and kidneys.
My family has a history of it.

Immediately before Eddowes goes hopping,Nichols moves in next door.
Kate returns seeking a reward.

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...act=mrc&uact=8

Look familiar?
ES?

The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

Chapman had TB.

Mary Ann Kelly appears to be the "ring leader".
Local girl,which is why no one has found her in Ireland.

I picked up a strep infection in 1982.
Used to be called Neurasthenia.
Today it is often referred to as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
Tends to interfere with my posts.

[DJA]

I believe Henry Gawen Sutton was being blackmailed by the five women.due to his sexual orientation.
Dates back to 1860s when Mary Kelly was a child and both were members of St Leonard's Church,Shoreditch.

[curious]

Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.

Would you please explain further?

Who was being blackmailed? By whom? and Why?

Thanks,

curious

[Michael W Richards]

Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.

That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.

I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.

[Michael W Richards]

In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

curious

Yep, that's the premise. I believe that the apron section carried the bits he took from the scene, something that Annies killer would have been prepared for this time out. The apron was torn and cut, it was a hasty decision. Maybe he did bring a hanky to take things away, but this new development of sectioning colons might have created a mess that wasn't anticipated.

[curious]

I believe that since its possible we have quite a bit of time between the murder of Kate and the appearance of an artifact from that crime scene its possible the killer from Mitre Square heard of the earlier murder after his murder. I think he may have heard it associated with a Jewish anarchists club on Berner, and I think its also possible that he had little affection for Jews in general.

That's the reason I suspect the apron section was deliberately left with a message, both referencing Jews. If I recall correctly I believe one club member had a brother living in the Model Homes.

I also believe that the location of the cloth may have had ancillary benefit for the killer, it suggests that the killer went from Mitre Square into the East End. He may not have had a bolt hole in that direction at all.

In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

curious