Not for nothing

[Scott Nelson]

Would someone be lees inclined to write a sentence with a double negative as opposed to speaking one?

[Pcdunn]

Links about Cockney double negatives

http://proper-english-foundatio.yolasite.com/chaucer-and-cockney-double-negatives.php

http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/a-dictionary-of-victorian-slang-1909/

I have found that double-negatives appear in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, so it seems to date back to Old English usage.

The 1909 A Dictionary of Victorian Slang is a out-of-copyright book (also known as being "in public domain") which you may download in PDF format, and use for research.

[David Orsam]

I see. But we need the real sources, not the view on the "poor" if we want to give examples from the East End and not from the field of literature.

You see, David, people here (some) believe that the expression is pure and simple cockney from the street in Victorian Whitechapel.

My dear boy, you are, as usual, confused. No-one is saying, or has said, that the expression "not for nothing" is "pure and simple cockney from the street in Victorian Whitechapel".

In fact, no-one has referred to the expression "not for nothing" at all because it is not part of the Ripper case.

But the use of the double negative in a sentence such as, to take a random example, "the men who will not be blamed for nothing" is pure cockney, although not only cockney by any means.

I gave you an "authentic" example of such use of double negative by a London prisoner who said "I ain't done nothing" when arrested.

In the expression "not for nothing", a true double negative is not to be found, so it's completely different from any expression relating to the Ripper case which it seems I'm not allowed to mention in this thread.

[GUT]

No, so you may see why I am puzzled when some people say that the expression was spoken cockney from the East End

Please show us where anyone has said that, about the phrase that you can't even link to the ripper case.

Stranger and stranger the twisted arguments you try to create.

[GUT]

But why are we doing this in:

Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness ?

Should you not be "generating knowledge" in a more suitable forum?

Mmmm maybe the whole thread, including its creator, is OFF TOPIC.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;417111]

Would it be impolite of me to point out that all of your sources for the expression "not for nothing" were from literature?

It would only be pointless since that is the point. They are meant to be literary examples.

Therefore I thought that is what you wanted.

I see. But we need the real sources, not the view on the "poor" if we want to give examples from the East End and not from the field of literature.

You see, David, people here (some) believe that the expression is pure and simple cockney from the street in Victorian Whitechapel.

There were no tape recorders in the nineteenth century my dear boy so it's a bit hard to provide you with an example of an actual person speaking if that's your demand.

No, so you may see why I am puzzled when some people say that the expression was spoken cockney from the East End.

There is one (1) written example from 1888. WHO is speaking?

That is the next problem that we may deal with, but first, as you can clearly see, we must overcome the eternal problem of the sources.

Hence, we can not speak about cockney without examples.

I, for my part, do not think "not for nothing" was cockney, but learned speach - and as you see, I have some bits of evidence for it.

Now I challenge those who want to say that the expression is cockney from the East End.

I hope they will show me that I am wrong.

And sadly enough the other alternative stands.

And that is my last post for now.

Cheers, Pierre

[David Orsam]

The most fantastic thing in the world my dear David: Generating knowledge.

But why are we doing this in:

Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness ?

Should you not be "generating knowledge" in a more suitable forum?

[GUT]

The most fantastic thing in the world my dear David: Generating knowledge.

Well maybe take it to Pub Talk if it has nothing to do with the case.

And you have the nerve to shout OFF TOPIC at everyone else.

[GUT]

But why are we comparing with "not for nothing"? What does the expression "not for nothing" have to do with the Ripper case?

Nothing more BS from the expert.

Posts the same thing over and over again on this thread won't say what he's trying to get at with a phrase seen nowhere in the case.

[David Orsam]

literature instead of an authentic source.

Would it be impolite of me to point out that all of your sources for the expression "not for nothing" were from literature?

Therefore I thought that is what you wanted.

There were no tape recorders in the nineteenth century my dear boy so it's a bit hard to provide you with an example of an actual person speaking if that's your demand.

[Pierre]

But why are we comparing with "not for nothing"?

The most fantastic thing in the world my dear David: Generating knowledge.

[David Orsam]

Thanks, David. Now, letīs compare your examples with "not for nothing" and see if they match. We need not+for+nothing.

But why are we comparing with "not for nothing"? What does the expression "not for nothing" have to do with the Ripper case?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;417087]

My dear boy, you seem very insistent.

Thanks, David. Now, letīs compare your examples with "not for nothing" and see if they match. We need not+for+nothing.

Can I tell you that the classic cockney expression would be:

"I have not done nothing"

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Problem: "for" is missing. Conclusion: no match.

Which would be more likely to be expressed as:

"I ain't done nothing" or "I ain't done nuffink".

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Problem: "for" is missing. Conclusion: no match.

An example from literature may be found in an 1879 book called Coward Conscience by Frederick William Robinson:


"I don’t know what genelman", said Larry, passing the back of his hand over his broken nose and sniffing violently; "I ain’t done nuffink but bring a message to a lady. I was to wait for a’ hanswer, and a bloomin’ nice time she’s been about it too".

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Problem: "for" is missing. Conclusion: no match.

Or in real life, from the testimony of PC Hayward 292 M at Southwark Police Court in March 1878 reporting that his prisoner, George Jones, arrested on a charge of stealing, said to him when captured, "Don’t you be so fly; I ain’t done nothing." (Times, 9 March 1878).

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Problem: "for" is missing. Conclusion: no match.

Now if you insist on the construction including the words "not", "for" and "nothing" then we find this in a story called Miss St Clair by Clara F. Guernsey published in "Today: The Popular Illustrated Magazine”, 3 May 1873

Here is where you should have started, David.

"They’d taken him to the poorhouse – Alice’s son – my own blood relation, the little fellow I’d nursed and tended. He said they were good to him, and that he didn’t want for nothing".

In case you don't follow, that can also be expressed as: he did not want for nothing.

More literature. Not an example from the East End. Well.

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Not+for+nothing included. Conclusion: match. Problem: Not the same meaning. Problem: Not an authentic source with quotes but literature.

Then we also have some dialogue from Richard Rowe's 1880 Picked up in the Streets, or Struggles for Life Amongst the London Poor where we find such sentences as:

"No my rent ain’t runnin’ on for nuffink, then."

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Not+for+nothing included. Conclusion: match. But literature instead of an authentic source.

"..but natur don’t require ye to let folk pitch into you for nuffink, mother or no mother."

Comparing this to: "not for nothing". Not+for+nothing included. Conclusion: match. Problem: More literature.

So there we have "ain't... for nuffink" or "is not.. for nothing" and "don't...for nuffink" or "do not...for nothing".

If I can be of any further assistance my dear boy please don't hesitate to ask but I trust that this is now the end of this thread.

David, do you have any sources from inquests or trials were people from the East End are being quoted?

It seems this is the language of literature and authors perspective on people.

[GUT]

My dear boy, if it is not too much trouble, can I ask: what connection does the expression "not for nothing" have with the Ripper murders?

Where in the entire case do we find such an expression either written or spoken?

If you try to destroy this thread by going off topic I will have to do something about it this time, David.

You are off topic by questioning the reason for me posting my thread. Stop it. Thanks.

Now I've heard it all, "Off Topic" for asking what the thread is about.

[Pierre]

The Oxford Dictionary defines the phrase "not for nothing" as meaning "for a very good reason."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/not_for_nothing

This meaning fits well with your examples, as well as those offered at the link above.

Thanks, Pcdunn!

Letīs see if people here have any examples for the "cockney"/"East End" Victorian use of the expression also!

Best wishes, Pierre