Not for nothing

[Harry D]

The whole neighborhood? really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it. first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman. we need to read everything into it!

The man has a point, Abby. This was a neighbourhood with a large Jewish locality. One of the murders occurred outside a Jewish socialist club, and antisemitic graffiti was found at a Jewish dwelling during a period of social unrest with the immigrant populace. The Jewish thread to the case is not necessarily related to the killer.

[Harry D]

If there was any gap, chances are that it was a gap in PC Long's perception, rather in the timing of the apron-drop itself. By the way, if he missed the apron first time around, it's no criticism of Long; as I've said before, he was a police officer, not a litter-warden.

My thoughts exactly. An old, sodden piece of rag lying in a dark doorway. Easily missed first time around.

[Sam Flynn]

The whole neighborhood [was of a Jewish appearance], really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it.

Yes, but no more than we should read into an anti-semitic graffito on a wall in a Jewish quarter in 1930s Germany. It's just the sort of thing we might expect to see.

first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman

From what we know today, the idea that he was a local, gentile Englishman should come as no surprise. Killers tend to attack people within their own socio-demographic group. The real clue is the apron, and always has been; the graffito is superfluous.

[Herlock Sholmes]

scwartz was following behind broad shoulders so the suspect didn't see him until he already started the attack. serial killers are humans, and complex ones at that, they have emotions, lose their temper etc.

BS man, marshalls man, lawendes suspect and the anaon church st sighting all describe the suspect as wearing a peaked cap.
the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

But once he knew that he'd been seen and could possibly have been identified wouldn't he have just 'aborted' and gone to find another victim?

[Abby Normal]

One aspect of the case that I've never been comfortable with Abby is the idea that Jack would fight/argue in the street, in front of a witness, with his intended victim. I've always felt it more likely that if Stride was a victim of Jack she had an arguement with someone (possibly someone that she knew) who went away and Jack moved in. It's the same reason why I don't really suspect Astrakhan Man or Hutch. Obviously I could be wrong though (unlikely I know )

scwartz was following behind broad shoulders so the suspect didn't see him until he already started the attack. serial killers are humans, and complex ones at that, they have emotions, lose their temper etc.

BS man, marshalls man, lawendes suspect and the anaon church st sighting all describe the suspect as wearing a peaked cap.
the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Abby Normal]

If you're right Abby, and you definately could be, then for me it argues for the GSG being written by Jack as it makes the act of discarding the apron in Goulston Street a deliberate one. He didn't need to go back out because he would have had no need to get rid of the apron that night. And even if he did want rid off it that night why go back into the heart of events where there would have been increased police activity/awareness?

yes it was deliberate, and him going back out in the streets to do it was peanuts compared to what he was used to getting away with.

[Abby Normal]

The entire neighbourhood had a heavy Jewish appearance. That's the problem: we can't really read much significance into the Jewish element, given the concentration of immigrant Jews in the area.Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito, and the very fact that PC Long discovered the writing only whilst he was actively searching the entrance-way suggests very strongly that the apron and graffito weren't in direct proximity. Furthermore, Long says that the apron was in the "passageway" leading to the stairs, whereas Warren said that the writing was on the "jamb" or "open doorway" at the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings. There is every indication that, whilst the two artefacts certainly weren't a million miles away from one another, they weren't directly juxtaposed either.

Hi Sam

The entire neighbourhood had a heavy Jewish appearance. That's the problem: we can't really read much significance into the Jewish element, given the concentration of immigrant Jews in the area.

The whole neighborhood? really? was the whole neighborhood wearing a peaked cap also? really Sam. the jewish element is exactly why we should read into it. first of all the killers reaction to it, points to him being local, gentile Englishman. we need to read everything into it!

Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito, and the very fact that PC Long discovered the writing only whilst he was actively searching the entrance-way suggests very strongly that the apron and graffito weren't in direct proximity. Furthermore, Long says that the apron was in the "passageway" leading to the stairs, whereas Warren said that the writing was on the "jamb" or "open doorway" at the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings. There is every indication that, whilst the two artefacts certainly weren't a million miles away from one another, they weren't directly juxtaposed either.

[/QUOTE]

passageway and door jam as locations aren't anything that excludes the apron still being directly under the graffiti. and even if its slightly off-still close enough for me.

add to the fact that the apron is what drew Long to discovering the grafitti and that most of the police at the time thought they connected.

[John G]

One aspect of the case that I've never been comfortable with Abby is the idea that Jack would fight/argue in the street, in front of a witness, with his intended victim. I've always felt it more likely that if Stride was a victim of Jack she had an arguement with someone (possibly someone that she knew) who went away and Jack moved in. It's the same reason why I don't really suspect Astrakhan Man or Hutch. Obviously I could be wrong though (unlikely I know )

I agree. Although I also believe that Schwartz was a very dubious witness!

[Herlock Sholmes]

especially since the suspect that night yelled a disparaging jewish insult at one of the witnesses, who had a "heavy" jewish appearance.
The same suspect who was wearing a peaked cap and was seen shortly before Eddowes murder with her, and whos bloody apron was directly below the graffiti.

To me its pretty much a no brainer. It all ties together. The suspect was the ripper, who was wearing a peaked cap that night, murdered both Stride and Eddowes, and pissed off at being spotted by jews that night, wrote the graffiti and signed it with the apron.

One aspect of the case that I've never been comfortable with Abby is the idea that Jack would fight/argue in the street, in front of a witness, with his intended victim. I've always felt it more likely that if Stride was a victim of Jack she had an arguement with someone (possibly someone that she knew) who went away and Jack moved in. It's the same reason why I don't really suspect Astrakhan Man or Hutch. Obviously I could be wrong though (unlikely I know )

[Herlock Sholmes]

If there was any gap, chances are that it was a gap in PC Long's perception, rather in the timing of the apron-drop itself. By the way, if he missed the apron first time around, it's no criticism of Long; as I've said before, he was a police officer, not a litter-warden.

Yup. Can't argue with that one Sam. He would have been looking for people up to no good in doorways (although I can't think of what? ) rather than bits of cloth or graffiti.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock
Given that by far the most likely reading of the graffito is that it was anti-semitic, it's more likely that its author wasn't pretending to be a Jew. We'd be in triple-bluff territory (at least!) if that were the case.

True Sam but what would be more likely to inflame sentiment against the Jews than having a 'jewish' murderer taunting everyone that he'd never be blamed? As if the Jews were somehow above suspicion. I just think it a possibility, no more.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm thinking time to go home drop of knife and goodies, get cleaned up a bit and grab a piece of chalk.

If you're right Abby, and you definately could be, then for me it argues for the GSG being written by Jack as it makes the act of discarding the apron in Goulston Street a deliberate one. He didn't need to go back out because he would have had no need to get rid of the apron that night. And even if he did want rid off it that night why go back into the heart of events where there would have been increased police activity/awareness?

[Sam Flynn]

especially since the suspect that night yelled a disparaging jewish insult at one of the witnesses, who had a "heavy" jewish appearance.

The entire neighbourhood had a heavy Jewish appearance. That's the problem: we can't really read much significance into the Jewish element, given the concentration of immigrant Jews in the area.

and whos bloody apron was directly below the graffiti.

Nowhere is it stated that the apron was "directly" below the graffito, and the very fact that PC Long discovered the writing only whilst he was actively searching the entrance-way suggests very strongly that the apron and graffito weren't in direct proximity. Furthermore, Long says that the apron was in the "passageway" leading to the stairs, whereas Warren said that the writing was on the "jamb" or "open doorway" at the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings. There is every indication that, whilst the two artefacts certainly weren't a million miles away from one another, they weren't directly juxtaposed either.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Herlock
Given that by far the most likely reading of the graffito is that it was anti-semitic, it's more likely that its author wasn't pretending to be a Jew. We'd be in triple-bluff territory (at least!) if that were the case.

especially since the suspect that night yelled a disparaging jewish insult at one of the witnesses, who had a "heavy" jewish appearance.
The same suspect who was wearing a peaked cap and was seen shortly before Eddowes murder with her, and whos bloody apron was directly below the graffiti.

To me its pretty much a no brainer. It all ties together. The suspect was the ripper, who was wearing a peaked cap that night, murdered both Stride and Eddowes, and pissed off at being spotted by jews that night, wrote the graffiti and signed it with the apron.

[Sam Flynn]

Could be Harry but I still can't help wondering about the time gap. Why did it take 40+ minutes for him to get to Goulston Street to discard the apron?

If there was any gap, chances are that it was a gap in PC Long's perception, rather in the timing of the apron-drop itself. By the way, if he missed the apron first time around, it's no criticism of Long; as I've said before, he was a police officer, not a litter-warden.